Kingfisher 1770 1:48 POF

dockattner said:
My thanks to @Jack Sparrow, @Steef66, @RogerD, @Don Case, @AnobiumPunctatum, @NMBROOK, @shota70, @Jimsky, @Heinrich, @RDN1954, and @Peter Voogt for responding to my question and offering your thoughts and suggestions. I guess I'm not surprised that the comments ranged from 'just build what you can see' to 'build it all' - and nearly every suggestion came with qualifications. I guess, in our own way, we are all artists and build model ships in a manner that reflects our personal view of the craft.

The one idea that was shared that has been rattling around in my head the most regarded the purpose for which I build model ships: do I build for the eventual viewer? or for my enjoyment of the process? I have to 'back into' the answer to this by reflecting on how I react when people look at my completed Vasa. NO ONE has even truly noticed (seen, commented on, whatever) all the details I have included on that model. People are favorably disposed toward the ship - but they simply cannot take in all the details (indeed, unless someone has built a scale model the details are lost in the whole). It would honestly take hours to consume all the details, and no one has ever shown that level of commitment to a ship model in the entryway of my house. They look, they comment, and then they wonder what wines I'll be serving with dinner. So, do I feel like I wasted my time grinding on the details? Not at all. In other words, it turns out I built the Vasa for myself.

Building on that realization...I also know that the completion of the Vasa was a disappointment. Yes, I felt a sense of accomplishment - but I was also sad that it was over. The only way I can account for this is to accept (recognize) that I enjoy the process more than the outcome. I liked BUILDING the ship more than I liked having a completed ship.

To that end I'll continue to pour myself into the details of the Kingfisher because that's the part I like. The only hedge is that life is more than a model ship - so I don't want the ship (or the process of building a ship) to become an idol in my life. As long as I keep things in perspective and continue to enjoy the process of building (translation: as long as I remain challenged), I'll continue to do the best work I can - and that means adding details that only you and I will ever know are there.

Thanks for helping me think this all through.
Click to expand...
Maybe by the time you finish there'll be robots about the size of an ant. You just have to put camera on it and voilà your work is not wasted and everyone still can admire it ;)
 
dockattner said:
Well, you have opened up a topic that I would like to gain some perspective on from the members of the forum...

The big question is: how much of the lower structures will be visible on a model like this?

Christian has mentioned some platforms that form a floor of sorts in the hold (located only fore and aft). Then there is a lower deck that runs nearly the length of the ship (stopping at the next-to-last gunport location). Then there is an upper deck that runs the full length of the ship. Then there is a sizable quarter deck at the back end, and a smaller forecastle deck at the front end.

The construction of these decks includes beams, knees, carlings, ledges... you've all seen fantastic open deck structures on other models. Of course, all this woodwork obstructs the view of whatever lies below (never mind the obstruction created by decking - even if it is installed sparingly).

The kit only intends for the builder to install the upper deck, quarter deck and forecastle deck leaving off everything below. I have already departed from that with the limber strakes and limber boards. But do I continue to add every layer with all its details or is that just silly?

I guess I wasn't even really aware of all of this when I started - but I am now entering a season of decision-making. I want to end up with a visually attractive and interesting model - but I also don't want to waste my limited modeling time, nor was I thinking this would be a ten-year project.

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts!
Click to expand...
This is an interesting topic, and quite subjective, with no absolutes. I'm sure the responses have been many and interesting.

I've given this some thought on my current project, Le Fleuron. None of my stern structure elements will be visible at all. They will all be completely covered by inter/external planking. Never the less I will be creating and assembling all of them. Some may consider this to be a waste of time, effort and materials, and I can see that perspective.

There is only one reason I will be doing this, PRACTICE! Since my next project will be a full PoF, displaying internal elements, I see this as an opportunity to flatten the learning curve now.

There are probably as many answers as there are modelers. No matter what you decide it will be the right answer for YOU. And respected by US.
 
Hoss6262 said:
This is an interesting topic, and quite subjective, with no absolutes. I'm sure the responses have been many and interesting.

I've given this some thought on my current project, Le Fleuron. None of my stern structure elements will be visible at all. They will all be completely covered by inter/external planking. Never the less I will be creating and assembling all of them. Some may consider this to be a waste of time, effort and materials, and I can see that perspective.

There is only one reason I will be doing this, PRACTICE! Since my next project will be a full PoF, displaying internal elements, I see this as an opportunity to flatten the learning curve now.

There are probably as many answers as there are modelers. No matter what you decide it will be the right answer for YOU. And respected by US.
Click to expand...
Hi Ken,

Thanks for sharing your approach. Indeed, I will be adding some of the construction details but mostly because I like doing the work. Gaining experience also plays a role - though once you've experienced your first 1000 treenails there is little point in adding more if they will only be hidden by planking and stuff...

I don't know what the future holds for me build-wise...it doesn't sit comfortably with my personality to look ahead like that when I'm in the middle of something. What I can tell you is it won't be another. That is, I won't build another ship like I've completed - there will need to be something different to keep my interest up and to challenge me in some way... Maybe I WILL cut a ship in half one day in order to show the details? Or a section model? Or a French ship?

Right now I'm learning that planking the inside of a hull is harder than planking the outside of a hull...at least the heavy timbers (thickstuff) are fighting me...
 
dockattner said:
Well, you have opened up a topic that I would like to gain some perspective on from the members of the forum...

The big question is: how much of the lower structures will be visible on a model like this?

Christian has mentioned some platforms that form a floor of sorts in the hold (located only fore and aft). Then there is a lower deck that runs nearly the length of the ship (stopping at the next-to-last gunport location). Then there is an upper deck that runs the full length of the ship. Then there is a sizable quarter deck at the back end, and a smaller forecastle deck at the front end.

Konstrukcja tych pokładów obejmuje belki, kolana, listwy, półki... wszyscy widzieliście fantastyczne konstrukcje otwartego pokładu w innych modelach. Oczywiście cała ta stolarka zasłania widok na wszystko, co znajduje się poniżej (nieważne, jakie przeszkody tworzą tarasy – nawet jeśli są one zamontowane oszczędnie).

Zestaw przeznaczony jest wyłącznie do zainstalowania przez konstruktora pokładu górnego, pokładu czwartego i pokładu dziobowego, pozostawiając wszystko poniżej. Odszedłem już od tego w przypadku zwinnych pasów i zwinnych desek. Ale czy nadal dodaję każdą warstwę ze wszystkimi jej szczegółami, czy jest to po prostu głupie?

Chyba nawet nie zdawałem sobie z tego wszystkiego sprawy, kiedy zaczynałem, ale teraz wkraczam w okres podejmowania decyzji. Chcę skończyć z atrakcyjnym wizualnie i interesującym modelem, ale nie chcę też marnować mojego ograniczonego czasu na modelowanie, nie myślałem też, że będzie to projekt dziesięcioletni.

Naprawdę interesują mnie Twoje przemyślenia!
Click to expand...
Witaj
Pawle kupując ten zestaw i oglądając po raz pierwszy na pewno wyobrażałeś sobie jak on będzie wyglądał po ukończeniu więc idź dalej drogą wizualizacji bo potem będziesz miał żal do siebie . Ja zawsze tak postępuje ale oczywiście ty musisz iść swoją drogą . W budowie modeli nawet najmniejsze części zrobione mają sens bo wiemy że tam są i to nam daje satysfakcje. Pozdrawiam Mirek

Hello
Paweł, when you bought this set and watched it for the first time, you must have imagined what it would look like when completed, so keep going down the visualization path, otherwise you will feel sorry for yourself later. This is what I always do, but of course you have to go your own way. When building models, even the smallest parts make sense because we know they are there and that gives us satisfaction. Regards, Mirek
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dockattner said:
Right now I'm learning that planking the inside of a hull is harder than planking the outside of a hull...at least the heavy timbers (thickstuff) are fighting me...
Click to expand...
In know very well by own experience what you describe here
On by Coureur I had also some real problems with the thick stuff planks near bow and stern -
On the Granado they were already easier to make with a better result
..... and than I cut them ;)
 
Mirek said:
Witaj
Pawle kupując ten zestaw i oglądając po raz pierwszy na pewno wyobrażałeś sobie jak on będzie wyglądał po ukończeniu więc idź dalej drogą wizualizacji bo potem będziesz miał żal do siebie . Ja zawsze tak postępuje ale oczywiście ty musisz iść swoją drogą . W budowie modeli nawet najmniejsze części zrobione mają sens bo wiemy że tam są i to nam daje satysfakcje. Pozdrawiam Mirek

Hello
Paweł, when you bought this set and watched it for the first time, you must have imagined what it would look like when completed, so keep going down the visualization path, otherwise you will feel sorry for yourself later. This is what I always do, but of course you have to go your own way. When building models, even the smallest parts make sense because we know they are there and that gives us satisfaction. Regards, Mirek
Click to expand...
These are wise words, Mirek. Yes, I will continue along the path I first envisioned for the model as you have suggested.

Google Translation: To mądre słowa, Mirek. Tak, będę podążał ścieżką, którą początkowo przewidywałem dla modelu, zgodnie z sugestią.
 
Uwek said:
In know very well by own experience what you describe here
On by Coureur I had also some real problems with the thick stuff planks near bow and stern -
On the Granado they were already easier to make with a better result
..... and than I cut them ;)
Click to expand...
Well, I look forward then to my second attempt because my first attempt has been frustrating. Part of my issue/concern is that I only have a limited supply of aftermarket boxwood stock on hand and it will take months to get more if I run out. (The kit does not include any of the timbers I am adding to the inside of the hull but they are so visually striking that I don't want to leave them out.) Stay tuned...
 
dockattner said:
Well, you have opened up a topic that I would like to gain some perspective on from the members of the forum...

The big question is: how much of the lower structures will be visible on a model like this?

Christian has mentioned some platforms that form a floor of sorts in the hold (located only fore and aft). Then there is a lower deck that runs nearly the length of the ship (stopping at the next-to-last gunport location). Then there is an upper deck that runs the full length of the ship. Then there is a sizable quarter deck at the back end, and a smaller forecastle deck at the front end.

The construction of these decks includes beams, knees, carlings, ledges... you've all seen fantastic open deck structures on other models. Of course, all this woodwork obstructs the view of whatever lies below (never mind the obstruction created by decking - even if it is installed sparingly).

The kit only intends for the builder to install the upper deck, quarter deck and forecastle deck leaving off everything below. I have already departed from that with the limber strakes and limber boards. But do I continue to add every layer with all its details or is that just silly?

I guess I wasn't even really aware of all of this when I started - but I am now entering a season of decision-making. I want to end up with a visually attractive and interesting model - but I also don't want to waste my limited modeling time, nor was I thinking this would be a ten-year project.

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts!
Click to expand...
dockattner said:
My thanks to @Jack Sparrow, @Steef66, @RogerD, @Don Case, @AnobiumPunctatum, @NMBROOK, @shota70, @Jimsky, @Heinrich, @RDN1954, and @Peter Voogt for responding to my question and offering your thoughts and suggestions. I guess I'm not surprised that the comments ranged from 'just build what you can see' to 'build it all' - and nearly every suggestion came with qualifications. I guess, in our own way, we are all artists and build model ships in a manner that reflects our personal view of the craft.

The one idea that was shared that has been rattling around in my head the most regarded the purpose for which I build model ships: do I build for the eventual viewer? or for my enjoyment of the process? I have to 'back into' the answer to this by reflecting on how I react when people look at my completed Vasa. NO ONE has even truly noticed (seen, commented on, whatever) all the details I have included on that model. People are favorably disposed toward the ship - but they simply cannot take in all the details (indeed, unless someone has built a scale model the details are lost in the whole). It would honestly take hours to consume all the details, and no one has ever shown that level of commitment to a ship model in the entryway of my house. They look, they comment, and then they wonder what wines I'll be serving with dinner. So, do I feel like I wasted my time grinding on the details? Not at all. In other words, it turns out I built the Vasa for myself.

Building on that realization...I also know that the completion of the Vasa was a disappointment. Yes, I felt a sense of accomplishment - but I was also sad that it was over. The only way I can account for this is to accept (recognize) that I enjoy the process more than the outcome. I liked BUILDING the ship more than I liked having a completed ship.

To that end I'll continue to pour myself into the details of the Kingfisher because that's the part I like. The only hedge is that life is more than a model ship - so I don't want the ship (or the process of building a ship) to become an idol in my life. As long as I keep things in perspective and continue to enjoy the process of building (translation: as long as I remain challenged), I'll continue to do the best work I can - and that means adding details that only you and I will ever know are there.

Thanks for helping me think this all through.
Click to expand...
Only you know what you want. You got all kind of responeses, but despite that the project is only in your head. Everybody elese can only gide you how to technicaly make things. Questions how much to cut or what to add must be put in a frame of design and coherency-> project. I know it's hard because you have to sacrafise sth: do the rigging, not do the rigging, sails, no sails, mabye leve it without masts and do another model. What ever you choose I'll gladly follow and cheer.

As for your advice about current model. Don't make the details you don't want to show. Due to reasons you mentioned in second post. We want to show them, that's why you wanted to cut the frames. It would be waste of your time and talent to hide them. Finish this ship in a way that pleases YOU.

Another idea for your next project to consider. I've seen a picture(here on SOS propably Uwe's post) of a POF model(two or three decker) with no exterior planking beneath water line and with all decks with all interrior devided and shown. It was all connected on metal pipes.

Let it be your relax time. Have fun and keep posting:)
 
dockattner said:
Well, I look forward then to my second attempt because my first attempt has been frustrating. Part of my issue/concern is that I only have a limited supply of aftermarket boxwood stock on hand and it will take months to get more if I run out. (The kit does not include any of the timbers I am adding to the inside of the hull but they are so visually striking that I don't want to leave them out.) Stay tuned...
Click to expand...
Check hobbymill.eu. Vahur is very helpful and his boxwood is exzellent
 
AnobiumPunctatum said:
Check hobbymill.eu. Vahur is very helpful and his boxwood is exzellent
Click to expand...
Thanks Christian. My boxwood (and holly) is from Vahur, and I agree the quality is excellent. It's just that he is very busy and only mills in his free time (he has another job, I think) so production time can be lengthy. My original order took more than two months so I'm being careful with my supply and hoping I won't run out and need to put the build on hold. Oh, and boxwood can be costly to waste it with mistakes...

I am always grateful for your help!
 
I had it in my head that I had been posting progress reports, but it turns out I haven't. Herewith is the work I have been doing on the inside of the hull...

After completing the limber strakes and limber boards at the floor of the hull, I spent a day or so trying to figure out how to get the lower deck clamp in the right place (the deck clamp determines the height of the deck beams, so it is important to get it properly located).

I carefully measured the ship plans and cross-referenced several exceptional build logs of other swan class ships. I used a vertical height gauge to transfer my measurements onto the inside of the hull.

IMG_9874.JPG
IMG_9875.JPG
IMG_9876.JPG

The deck clamps are large, heavy timbers on the Kingfisher so I needed to spile the planks in order to get them to run smooth and flat...

IMG_9877.JPG

These specialty clamps are essential for this type of work...

IMG_9879.JPG

Those familiar with swan class ships now know I have chosen to not create the deck clamps with the standard 'top and butt' pattern. I just didn't think I could pull it off on my first POF build (though that pattern will be called for again on the exterior of the ship and perhaps I will give it a shot there - working on the outside of the hull versus the inside should create a more favorable learning environment).

The lower deck clamp is actually two strakes:

IMG_9882.JPG

IMG_9883.JPG

And here is the overall look with the lower deck clamp in place:

IMG_9884.JPG

IMG_9887.JPG

IMG_9890.JPG

Next, I was ready to install the 'thickstuff' associated with the head of the first futtock. Unlike the deck clamp planks which have only a mild taper - the thickstuff planks have a rather substantial taper (and even a drop-plank):

IMG_9893.JPG
IMG_9895.JPG
IMG_9899.JPG
IMG_9900.JPG

In the above images you can see that I have also begun installing footwalling (normal thickness planks) between the limber strakes and the thickstuff:

IMG_9896.JPG

IMG_9897.JPG

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whiter planking (American holly). On the one hand it provides some visual interest and a nice contrast with other elements of the open frame - but it is rather jolting to look at in isolation. I won't pull it out - but it might be toned down a bit with stain. Stay tuned...
 
Maarten said:
Hi Paul,

I provide you a solution to have all details visible.
Just join the Japanese saw club, it is easy to become a member.
View attachment 395464
Click to expand...
This saw should be kept on a leash, it surfaces every now and then on the most unexpected blogs.
The most dangerous issue being that it lures innocent modelers into believing they can handle anything the saw throws at them. Don't fall for it!
 
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