Kits and let downs

GaryM said:
If you are building a model that ends up with 5,000 parts or more and lots of rigging, then good quality parts helps make the ship look right. I don't care if you say that I assembled the parts you gave me. I say, I was able to create a great looking vessel because of the great care and accurate parts provided. If you look at my doll house, it uses 4,800 shingles in eight different shapes. For a home hobbyist to create those and get them all the same wood be a real chore. Just putting them together on the doll house and getting them right is a chore. I would not have built the doll house if I had to create all those parts.
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well this might answer don's question about getting more members to speak up, like I said hot topics or controversial topics

this may be why contests separate kits and scratch building in different categories and why some groups of modelers look down at kit builders as Hobby Lobby craft kind of people and not artists involved in the finer art of model ship building.. I think it is impressive to arrange and glue 4,800 different shingles on the roof of a scale house, even more impressive if you devised a way to make 4,800 shingles then applied them to the roof.

just for the sake of argument
you say better quality parts in a kit make a better model. I do not agree because take this example

two chefs given the same food to start with a skilled chef can make a wonderful meal. another with less experience might turn that steak into something you can use to replace the sole on your shoe.

good parts vs bad parts is subjective and it is more of good skill vs not so good skills of the builder that will create the end results
 
Dave,I think the food is not a good exemple because cooking is like scratch building you got the raw wood material and the plans as recipe.
 
janos said:
Just answering an earlier question a few days ago I asked Max whether ZHL would be interested in selling me the rib only of one of their kits. The answer was NO.
Janos
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back in the 1960s model shipways use to sell kits in parts. you could buy just the hull or just the plans, fitting set, rigging, masting in other words you could buy a kit model piece by piece.

I still think the junkyard of ship model parts or a flea market of kits, kit pieces and parts would work.

could it be that model ship builders are just lazy? they want everything boxed up and handed to them.
 
zoly99sask said:
Dave,I think the food is not a good exemple because cooking is like scratch building you got the raw wood material and the plans as recipe.
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rib burn offs BBQ contests all start with the same basic stuff meat but yet some are way better than others.

hum comes down to learned skill

so as the title kits and let downs maybe it is not the kit that is the let down maybe you open the box and the let down is you. I have sent out timbering sets and they come back with a note. May I request a refund this is way beyond my skills. Now that is a builder who knows it is not the provided kit it is his skill to do it.
Then you have builders like Brian who will step up and try it just for the challenge
 
would you consider someone a "chef" if they went to a local supermarket bought a bunch of frozen meals in a box, warmed them up and set them on the table?

or is a "chef" someone who went to culinary school and learned a skill went to the same supermarket bought a bunch of separate ingredients prepared a meal and set it on the table?

would you consider someone an artisan who opens a box and assembles the parts?

or is an artisan someone who comes up with an idea and from scratch builds a model of a ship?
 
I am enjoying the dialogue in this thread. It's very refreshing to see a topic like this discussed with a group of mature modelers. I totally agree with kits, materials, plans, and drawings. This is one of the reasons I invested in learning CAD and buying CNC and Laser equipment so that I can fabricate my own parts. I realize these modeling tools are out of reach for most people... so... I am happy to cut parts for any of you guys as needed. All I need is a good line drawing, dimensions, and material.

Modelers helping each other - only for the members of this forum. :)

Mike
 
ok Mike I can see this as an alternative to the ship in a box.

I can produce a timbering set for say the roebuck Joe has posted or a timbering set done by Hahn which is an easier framing version.
Two sets of plans of the ship are available Hahn version and joes version. These are "plans" so you have to know how to read a set of ship plans and understand the construction of a wooden ship. What would help here is a 3D model of the ship so you can see how it all goes together.

a problem here is most builders can not do the stern carvings so if someone were to send you a CAD file you are saying you can cut with CNC or a laser a basic carving which someone could refine to a finish.

so now what we have is a timbering set created by the builder which any type of wood can be selected, it is now custom made to order. That is step one, now for the carvings that is something you can create and offer, Cannons there are a number of sources.

as builders we are not backed in the corner or "boxed in" step outside the box and an entire new world of the art of ship modeling opens up.
 
going back to Don comment

we got to get members to speak up add your 2 cents worth

don't be shy you will not be banned or criticized or shamed anything even some idea so far out on the fringes might shed light on the topic
 
I don't know why modellers feel they have to build huge models covered in fancy carving and bristling with guns. I haven't built a kit in many years - don't have the patience, space or time, and have never liked the idea of building what hundreds of others are building! Give me the obscure and humble merchant ship any time! Latest production here - less than 50 hours to built - cost, almost nothing!
Bob


Julia with nameplate 2 (Large) (Medium).JPG​
 
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Bob,people building big ship models bcause its fun and they look impressive,I personally like big models what I can see from 10 feet with details.
 
Sure did, realised it after I had posted! I like something I can hold in the palm of my hand. Eyes just glaze over when I take mine to local ship model club, but collectors fall over themselves to get them.
Bob

Small schooner ready for sea.JPG​
 
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Before I buy a kit I search the Internet for reviews of the kit, pictures of the box contents and to find out if there are problems with the kit. I then decide whether I have to skills to complete the kit. I don't have a workshop or any machine tools, so I build at the Kitchen table or a portable table in my Conservatory using hand tools. Whilst I admire the people who replace parts with "better" quality wood, I like the challenge of trying to produce a decent model from the parts supplied. About 10 years ago I built Will Everard by Billings, the instructions were worse than useless and it was a mixture of wood, metal and plastic parts, I really struggled with it but managed to finish it. A couple of years ago my Brother In Law who is a Carpenter and Joiner saw it and said it was a great looking boat, he didn't see all the faults with it, he just saw a wooden boat, and that applies to the vast majority of the people who see my models. I could have spent a fortune replacing parts but to most people it would look the same. We are all different, some want 100% accuracy, others the best available materials and some, myself included, are happy to just build models to the best of their ability.

Cheers Andy
 
Everybody has different possibilities, small or big financial budgets, no tools or a lot, workspace and also different experience.
Especially because of this variabilties in our all Hobby such places like this Forum where we all share this makes it so interesting. I m happy to be part of this variability.
Everybody should built what he likes and I am pretty sure, that most of us wants to build his/her model as best as possible........
 
didit said:
going back to Don comment

we got to get members to speak up add your 2 cents worth

don't be shy you will not be banned or criticized or shamed anything even some idea so far out on the fringes might shed light on the topic
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Hey Dave,
how can I go about ordering a timbering set for Alfred in a bigger scale from you ? Is that possible ?
 
"if you devised a way to make 4,800 shingles then applied them to the roof." "two chefs given the same food"
The new chefs come to work and both are told that there are plenty of pigs in the yard. Before you start anything else, each of you must make 4,800 pieces of bacon and they have to be exactly this size within 0.01 inches. I bet the boss is instantly out looking for two other chefs.
I also liked being a chef. But like the ones above, I would have found something better to do with my time than work at making 4800 pieces of bacon before starting any other prep work, let alone thinking about serving food to customers.
I like building the model and a good kit can take years to build. The thing that is important is that you build something that you can be proud of when it is finished. For some, it takes making every piece; for others, it is just completing the project with what is given; for others it is doing the best they can with what can be found available on the market or by using some after market products. For the later, if the kit is better, then the need for after market is reduced and the right parts can be shown in the plans.
 
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Hi What peeved me off wit the last two builds was that Occre substituted oak / walnut parts for what looked like oak / walnut stained ply. but not the photos on the kit or destructions. Secondly the AL Santa Ana has had the display stand and mounting columns removed and replaced with a ply building base. Said in an addendum it s cost reduction but he Kit does not go down in price and is their 2nd of the line top kit. Hmm Base board & columns less than $25 on Ebay.

Yes I agree that wages & wood costs have increased, but you don' t find out till you open the kit.... sucks.

At least I have 5-10 years or more effort in the last two kits so It wont bother me till I'm in my seventies..
 
personally what i would do is search on line to find 4,800 shingles before I spent the time sitting for hours trying to make them. Like you said "better use of time" but then I wonder why some go through all the trouble to build a ropewalk and sit there twisting rigging line when you can just buy it.


A couple of years ago my Brother In Law who is a Carpenter and Joiner saw it and said it was a great looking boat, he didn't see all the faults with it, he just saw a wooden boat, and that applies to the vast majority of the people who see my models. I could have spent a fortune replacing parts but to most people it would look the same

right! I know builders who sweat over things like is the rigging line right or left twist. Should that hull planking be .125 or .128 wide? yup .003 thousandths of an inch matters to some and not to others.

I can see if we had national model ship shows and competitions and there was a nice cash grand prize up for grabs. Start off at local shows and work your way up to grand master builder and walk away with a check for 10 grand. Now .003 might make or break a winner.

I might even wonder about bragging I spent 3 months making 4,800 shingles or 3,000 wooden pegs. I just might get a look and comment "well I see you have nothing better to do with your time"

it takes as much skill and talent to build a model from a box of junk as it is to start from scratch.
 
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