Mitre or Butt joint?

[suspend6]

On my supplied Bounty kit plans, the frames surrounding the gratings on the main deck are just butted at the corners. My “Anatomy” book does not show this in enough detail to clarify. To me, these frames should have (or would look better) with mitred corner joints. I see the same butt joints around door frames and wonder if that was just the way it was done in the day. What is your take on this?
Cheers, Phil

 

[Alexander74]

On my supplied Bounty kit plans, the frames surrounding the gratings on the main deck are just butted at the corners. My “Anatomy” book does not show this in enough detail to clarify. To me, these frames should have (or would look better) with mitred corner joints. I see the same butt joints around door frames and wonder if that was just the way it was done in the day. What is your take on this?
Cheers, Phil

Something like this

 

[suspend6]

Yes, but not even halved joints. Just butted together. In plan view, the appearance would be identical to your number 6 sketch. If your material is from an historical publication, then butt joints are going to be closest to the original. Thank you.

 

[Short John Bronze]

Halved joints would allow nailing in two horizontal directions at each corner or possibly one vertical pin. Stronger and simpler , though less elegant, then a mitre

 

[AllanKP69]

The drawings from Alexander in post #2 are basically correct. The joints are actually a bit more complex for English ships. It is best to make the grating as close to size as possible first so that there are no openings on the outer rows. Once done, make the head ledges and coamings to fit. Note the rounded corners of the head ledges about the top surface of the deck planking.

Allan

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

a mitered joint in coamings would pull apart here is how the corners are done

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

here is how i made the coamings

Tecumseth 1815

Looking fine and ship-shape. Thumbsup Fair winds.. Ed

shipsofscale.com

 

[AndyA]

Miter joints are for picture frames and baseboards. Never used on a vessel. It's a weak joint and more susceptible to rot.
Fair winds!

 

[Kurt Konrath]

I am amazed at this great information on such a simple item. I love the members here who share there knowledge on things and references from plans and photos of the real ships.

Model manufactures often take shortcuts to make things more simple to build.

 

[Russ]

Will making mitter or butt joints be at all visable at say 1/50 and smaller scale?

 

[AllanKP69]

Will making mitter or butt joints be at all visable at say 1/50 and smaller scale?

Yes IMHO, especially as neither miter nor butt joints were used on the head ledges and coaming pieces on the ships themselves. The modified lap joints can be seen at scales as small as 1:64. That said, there is one model at Preble Hall where the head ledges and coaming corners are mitered rather than lapped. I don't know if those are original pieces or from a restoration. Lap joint at 1:48 is below.
Allan

 

[Russ]

Yes IMHO, especially as neither miter nor butt joints were used on the head ledges and coaming pieces on the ships themselves. The modified lap joints can be seen at scales as small as 1:64. That said, there is one model at Preble Hall where the head ledges and coaming corners are mitered rather than lapped. I don't know if those are original pieces or from a restoration. Lap joint at 1:48 is below.
Allan

Point is well taken. What zoom level is you photo taken?

 

[RogerD]

An interesting thread and something I also researched. I have attached a link to a post I made back in December 2022. Possibly this will support what others have written to give you some guidance. Hope this helps Phil.

https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/syren-1803-1-64-model-shipways.7779/post-277424

 

[Russ]

Roger,
Beautiful work. Your joints are perfect especially when zoomed in like that. I can only aspire to that level. At normal viewing, and my age, my eyes can't see that close.

 

[suspend6]

Wow, the level of detail and explanation of what was assumed to be a simple and straightforward question by me is amazing. What a wealth of knowledge! Thanks to all who have contributed.
Cheers, Phil

 

[AllanKP69]

What zoom level is you photo taken?

Hi Russ
I have no idea. I just point and let autofocus do its thing. I get as close as I can then move the camera back until it snaps a pic. Once downloaded I then crop out extraneous things in the periphery. I have a macro setting but did not use it this time.
Allan

 

[Uwek]

Interesting maybe also that the coamings of english ships were installed on top of the beams and carlings, but the french were installing them often on top of the deck planking

english - here main hatch of the HMS Granado





french - here the Le Coureur (drawing from Jean Boudriot)

 

[AllanKP69]

Hi Kurt,
The drawings having the coamings on the deck planks by Boudroit is easier to do on a model than having them on the beams and carlings and planking around them but I wonder if this was just his own idea or based on contemporary plans. From a practical standpoint the coamings and head ledges would have to be removed to repair/replace damaged planking so a major undertaking. Looking at contemporary French models, they do not look like this from what I can find. There are a lot of fantastic photos of contemporary models from France that you posted here at MSW that show gratings laying on the beams and carling, not the deck planks. Then again, the models do not appear to have coamings or head ledges at all, just the gratings and adjacent strakes of deck planks. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/marine-museum-rochefort-france-musÉe-de-la-marine-rochefort.2628/. Two of your photos follow from your post #4.

Frolich shows the same construction as the contemporary model on his models, including on page 120 of The Art of Ship Modeling , the Belle Boule, in the last picture below.

Perhaps the methods varied with time just as with so many things that changed with the RN ships construction.
Allan

 

[Signet]

Interesting maybe also that the coamings of english ships were installed on top of the beams and carlings, but the french were installing them often on top of the deck planking

EXACTLY what I've been wondering about in my Granado build. A timely answer for me, thanks!

And from everyone, GREAT information on hatches, gratings and coamings in this thread now. I'll be saving it for future detailing information.

 

[Uwek]

Hi Kurt,
The drawings having the coamings on the deck planks by Boudroit is easier to do on a model than having them on the beams and carlings and planking around them but I wonder if this was just his own idea or based on contemporary plans. From a practical standpoint the coamings and head ledges would have to be removed to repair/replace damaged planking so a major undertaking. Looking at contemporary French models, they do not look like this from what I can find. There are a lot of fantastic photos of contemporary models from France that you posted here at MSW that show gratings laying on the beams and carling, not the deck planks. Then again, the models do not appear to have coamings or head ledges at all, just the gratings and adjacent strakes of deck planks. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/marine-museum-rochefort-france-musÉe-de-la-marine-rochefort.2628/. Two of your photos follow from your post #4.

Frolich shows the same construction as the contemporary model on his models, including on page 120 of The Art of Ship Modeling , the Belle Boule, in the last picture below.

Perhaps the methods varied with time just as with so many things that changed with the RN ships construction.
Allan
View attachment 461312View attachment 461311
View attachment 461313

I guess you mean Uwe and not Kurt,..... but no problem
Jean Boudriot was not showing this only in the monograph of the Le Coureur, but also in his famous 4 Volume book of the 74-gunner, which is often the "technical bible" of french ship modelers

Book review - THE 74-GUN SHIP - Volume 1 - HULL CONSTRUCTION" (Set of 4 Volumes) - by Jean Boudriot

Book Review: THE 74-Gun SHIP / THE SEVENTY-FOUR GUN SHIP A Practical Treatise on the Art of Naval Architecture 4 Volume Set (Set of 4 volumes) Overview of the Content of all 4 Volumes Here: Volume 1 - HULL CONSTRUCTION by Jean Boudriot english translation by David H. Roberts...

shipsofscale.com

These are excerpts from the book



longitudinal there are thicker deck planks than the normal ones - a speciality of the frendh deck structure (same has f.e. the Bonhomme Richard)



This is in general shown by Boudriots drawings

f.e. La Belle



but also the Belle Poule, which you mentioned has the same construction





Boudriot is showing several contemporary drawings in his monograph having this structure





also the original drawing of the Belle Poule



I agree completely with @Signet - these talks are highly interesting for all participants and a lot of members