Model Master Paint use survey

[uncchains]

In response to some recent inquiries about the availability of Model Master Paints, I would like to conduct a survey. Model Master paints have been discontinued due to "...diminished sales..." Model Master paints, as some of you may know, was manufactured by Testors, which also made the Floquil paints used mainly, I think, by model railroaders, and Testors' parent company is Rustoleum, another manufacturer of pretty good paints. I heard that one excuse for the discontinuation of Floquil was that model railroad equipment makers are focusing al;most entirely on pre-labled/painted engines and rolling stock. Ok...I have used many a bottle of Floquil over the last 40 years or so and miss its availability.

I reached out to Rustoleum recently and got this: "We do apologize for the disappointment in having the Model Master line discontinued and can understand the frustration as well. While we cannot say if this line will ever be brought back, your comments and feedback will be shared with our internal product team to review." Really? In my opinion, MM was the best paint available among all the manufacturers for matching Mil-Spec colors. I have built 25 aircraft and used MM on each for accurate, correct color schemes. Sure Tamiya and Humbrol do have some limited matches but the supply of "rattle cans" by these two is also somewhat limited and they are rather pricy. MM paints were economically priced and much more readily available in stores like Hobby Lobby. I may have to start buying bottles and fire up my air brush again.....

I am curious to know:

1. How many of us members have used MM paints on their models and for how long;
2. What types of models was MM used on (a: Ships/boats, b: model train engines, rolling stock, and/or structures, c: cars and trucks, d: other models (i.e., figures, dioramas, etc.);
3. How many different colors one used (if determinable);
4. How many models one has built using MM paints either exclusively or with other brands;
5. How was /were MM paints obtained, Local availability or by mail-order?
6. Age of modeler, general location, (city, state, if publishing this info is acceptable), most frequently built models

I would like to think and hope that if enough of us speak out to Rustoleum, we may be able to convince them that there is a very viable market for their paints among a wide variety of model builders in a wide variety of locations.

So, to start off (I hope I wont be the only respondent, ,:
1: Me, see above...
2: a, & b (1/32, 1/48, 1/32 scale aircraft, HO scale locos, rolling stock and structures)
3. At least 15
4. Somewhere at or more than 50 of the above (25 aircraft, lots of RR pieces, 8 ships)
5. Hobby Lobby, Sprue Brothers, Amazon
6. 71, North Carolina, right now splitting my time between a cross-section of the HMS VICTORY (Corel) and a Trumpeter1/32 scale A-10 Warthog (for which I cannot find two of the three colors I need)

Thanks

 

[bluenos2]

As someone who spent over 14 years in coporate I can assure you there is no chance what so ever that Rustoleum will bring back Testors paints or Model Master paints. When a company determines that it isn't profitable "enough" to justify production due to demand it's game over. It's all about core manufacturing strategies. Even if they were to consider a relaunch it would cost millions to ramp up production again with no clear idea of a profitable customer base. There are many companies out there that have taken up the slack and provide excellent products. I lament the loss of these products as I cut my teeth on Testors and later on Model Master. The same goes with Humbrol. Time to move on.

 

[bluenos2]

Just so you know Rustoleum's parent company is RPM. It is owned by several institutional and private investors. They don't know or care about people who need little bottles of paint to finish their models. It is about maximizing shareholder value.

 

[X Bubble Head]

I switched over to Vallejo Air acrylics and have looked back. Great paint when properly thinned for airbrush applications.

 

[AllanKP69]

In response to your question regarding what paints. As my area of interest is mainly about wooden ships in the age of sail I use professional grade acrylics from Liquitex and Golden brands and have never been disappointed.
Allan

 

[kg4kpg]

I still use Model Master acrylics when I can find them, for aircraft or ships. I would love to see them come back.

 

[uncchains]

Amen to that. So far, the responses have I have received from Rust-o-leum, the company that manufactured Model Master, have not been positive. I would like to think that enough of us modelers of ships, planes, cars, various types of armor, etc. politely complain, the company may realize that they are overlooking a very large market for its paint. See my previous posts.

Can I ask for "likes" from members of SoS who have used MM, currently use MM (when it can be found) and who would resume use if becomes available again. Maybe we can convince R-o-L to rethink its decision.

 

[bluenos2]

I have switched to #1 Tamiya, #2 AK Interactive and Vallejo. Tamiya is very high quality as well as these other products.. All are available are at many good hobby shops.The resurrection of Model Master is a dead duck. Rust-o-leum told you as much. For those interested please read my last post. I speak from the corporate side of this issue. This is not good news for people like us who depend upon a quality product of any sort to serve our needs. We are too small of a market share to justify production based on profit margin to satisfy investor value.

 

[Bob Cleek]

I have also taken the route Allan described in his post above, I've gone to using top quality tubed artists' oil paints since Floquil was bought out and then discontinued and haven't looked back. (Acrylics, too, for a few limited applications, but I favor oil-based paint and clear coatings over water-based paint and varnish. Learning to mix one's own colors and condition their own paint is not at all difficult once one learns the technique and, if necessary, has a color wheel. For ship modeling purposes, the palette is rather limited, so there's no need to buy a bunch of pre-mixed colors. (Floquil's biggest customer base were the "rivet counting" model railroaders who wanted to be sure they had exact matches for the trademarked liveries of the various railroad companies whose rolling stock they modeled and military modelers who wanted exact mil-spec color matches for particular nation at a particular time.) Tubed oils have a relatively long shelf-life, compared to those little, but very expensive, one- and two-ounce bottles that dry up in short order once they've been opened. (Or, God forbid, those super costly and often poorly performing damned aerosol "rattle cans." While I still miss the old Floquil products, I don't miss throwing out the dried-up bottles or dealing with the Floquil's proprietary DioSol solvent one bit. I'd much rather enjoy the aroma of good old fashioned linseed oil and turpentine.

 

[uncchains]

I have switched to #1 Tamiya, #2 AK Interactive and Vallejo. Tamiya is very high quality as well as these other products.. All are available are at many good hobby shops.The resurrection of Model Master is a dead duck. Rust-o-leum told you as much. For those interested please read my last post. I speak from the corporate side of this issue. This is not good news for people like us who depend upon a quality product of any sort to serve our needs. We are too small of a market share to justify production based on profit margin to satisfy investor value.

I, too, have used Tamiya. It is on the expensive side and Tamiya does not have a "complete" range of MilSpec equivalent paint. Humbrol, Vallejo (now that itnis apparently back in business) and AMMO have more extensive ranges but one has to use an air brush or hand paint what needs to be painted. Oils may be good for woods but may be way to heavy for aircraft, armor and cars unless thinned considerably.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Oils may be good for woods but may be way too heavy for aircraft, armor and cars unless thinned considerably.

Generally, all paints and varnishes will need to be conditioned prior to application. Buying "thinned" coatings such as model paint "for airbrushing" or "wipe-on poly," etc. is only needlessly costing you money because thinners and solvents are much less expensive than paint pigments and binders, yet a bottle of the "thinned stuff" costs the same as a bottle of full-strength material. "Heavy" paint is a good buy!

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Generally, all paints and varnishes will need to be conditioned prior to application.

I have these formula with no references to confirm as:
There are dry pigments - which need to be mixed with a binder (polymerizing vanish), Linseed oil (with catalyst) or similar, generally 1:2 pigment to binder ?? Enamels ?
If a water miscible acrylic binder is used it is acrylic ??

There are artist's tubed oils (and acrylics) which are pigment already mixed with binder, - generally 1:2 ??
When the oils are mixed with thinner - organic solvent, it becomes equivalent to the stuff in little bottles ?
When the acrylic are mixed with water it is equivalent to that family in little bottles ?

More binder can be added for a more transparent effect. But if a line is crossed with too much binder there can be crazing ??

Once the mixing formula is learned, there is no more dependence on commercial model paint manufacturers ?

The next challenge is to get the correct mixture of pigments to get the desired shade ?
Not that many primary colors need be bought ?
Meticulous records of ratios are needed to avoid doing the same experiment over and over ?

No more being a thrall of high profit margin model paint manufactures?
It is now just a matter of doing yourself what the manufacturers are really doing ??

 

[Bob Cleek]

There are dry pigments - which need to be mixed with a binder (polymerizing vanish), Linseed oil (with catalyst) or similar, generally 1:2 pigment to binder ?

Yes, the ratio varies depending upon the pigment characteristics. The average ration is between 1:1 and 1.25. Artists' oils, I believe, are mixed with raw linseed oil. "Boiled linseed oil" is raw linseed oil with dryer added. Artists' oils do not contain dryers because artists generally want their oils to take a long time to dry on the canvas so that they can work on them over time, blending colors and so on, while the paint remains "wet."

When the oils are mixed with thinner - organic solvent, it becomes equivalent to the stuff in little bottles

Not exactly. A dash (amount per instructions or experiment) of Japan dryer, or the equivalent polymerization accelerant should be added to tubed artists' oils. For modeling purposes, we want a faster drying (polymerizing) oil binder than picture painting artists do. Adding Japan dryer or boiled linseed oil will hasten "drying" (polymerization.)

More binder can be added for a more transparent effect. But if a line is crossed with too much binder there can be crazing ??

I believe the better technique for creating transparent effects is to add both binder and thinner (solvents) to your desired consistency to create a wash. Adding additional binder will "thin" the amount of pigment in the mix, thereby reducing the opacity of the paint, but the binder will remain after polymerization, causing a buildup of coating thickness and, in extreme cases, "skinning" and "crinkling." The solvents simply evaporate leaving the "thinned" coat without adding binder to the mix. A solvent, commonly turpentine, will appear to speed drying because it will evaporate more quickly than raw linseed oil. (Japan dryer actually does speed polymerization of the oil.) Linseed oil is a retardant that will make your paint more slowly the more that is added.

When the acrylics are mixed with water it is equivalent to that family in little bottles ?

It depends upon the type of acrylic binder used. Some are water soluble, while others are alcohol soluble. It makes a big difference! As always, read the instructions on the material container. I'm not real familiar with acrylics. I believe they also have specific accelerators and retarders to regulate the curing speed of the acrylic binder.

Once the mixing formula is learned, there is no more dependence on commercial model paint manufacturers ?

Damn straight! No more paying incredibly inflated prices for premixed paint that is mainly thinner and dries up in the bottle in the blink of an eye. The one advantage to premixed modeling colors, though, is that if you absolutely must have a very specific color, such as for a military vehicle or a railroad livery, it's often safer to buy it from one of the top model paint companies to be sure the color is correct. Viewing color charts on a computer screen will never yield the actual color. It will always be off by a bit. (This is why paint companies provide "paint chips" at the paint store, pieces of cardstock with real paint on them, so you know exactly what the color in the can will be.

The next challenge is to get the correct mixture of pigments to get the desired shade ?
Not that many primary colors need be bought ?
Meticulous records of ratios are needed to avoid doing the same experiment over and over ?

It's best to mix "by eye" under the type of light you expect will be illuminating the finished work. Acrylics tend to dry a bit darker in color than when wet. I mix paint on a piece of clear glass because the color when viewed through the glass is the color it will be when dry. A palette for ship model painting need not be extensive at all if one learns the "color wheel" and how to mix their own colors. I keep track of all mixtures by recording the amount of tubed paint I extrude from the tube my length in "parts," starting with the greatest amount first. A "part" is usually an eighth of an inch. (I tape a printed copy of a ruler on the bottom of my glass mixing palette. Then I can squeeze out something like a half inch of white, then a quarter inch of raw sienna, and an eigth of an inch of cadmium yellow, which would be "4 parts white, 2 parts raw sienna, and 1 part cadmium yellow. (This measurement system only works if all of your paint tubes have the same size end holes!) I write that on a card and paint a sample of the mix on the card. When I mix greater amounts, I multiply the recipe. After the paint color is mixed, I put it in a small jar, add the desired conditioners (turpentine, linseed oil, accelerator, etc., and mix well. One thing that is very important is to only use quality paints and "basic" colors. Pigments are expensive. Artists paint companies often put out two or three lines of the same colors of paint at different price points, frequently rated as "student level" through "professional level." Standard basic colors are offered in every paint line, but paint companies also offer hundreds of premixed colors. There are often several mixtures that will yield a particular mixed color and if you are mixing colors that have already been mixed to yield the color they are "out of the tube," they may very well not behave as you expected when mixed with other "mongrel" colors. This problem is endemic to the lower-end products. Note that the best level of paint usually has the finest ground pigment and the highest pigment content. As the paint is for a model, the finer the pigment grind and the denser the pigment in the mix, the thinner it can be applied without building up an unsightly "overscale" paint coating on the model.