POF SLOOP HMS SPEEDWELL 1752 - PROTOTYPE WIP - SYREN MODELLING COMPANY

Submarinerblue said:
One reason this model is so expensive is because of the large scale, 3/8, making a 31 inch model without rigging. A 1/64 or 1/48 version would use far less wood, be much less expensive and still produce an excellent and challenging model. The cost would have also been reduced if less expensive woods (cherry, pear) were used which would have been quite acceptable to most modelers. I don't understand why the designer chose to use a scale, type of wood and corresponding cost that would put it out of the reach of most potential customers. I was looking forward to seeing a quality POF model that was produced domestically. But, when I saw the cost I was totally disappointed. Spending that amount of money for a kit just seems wrong. Ship modeling should not be an elitist hobby that is only available to those with unlimited funds.
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Luckily we have same quality kits from Chinese manufacturers 1/3 of the price
 
Submarinerblue said:
One reason this model is so expensive is because of the large scale, 3/8, making a 31 inch model without rigging. A 1/64 or 1/48 version would use far less wood, be much less expensive and still produce an excellent and challenging model. The cost would have also been reduced if less expensive woods (cherry, pear) were used which would have been quite acceptable to most modelers. I don't understand why the designer chose to use a scale, type of wood and corresponding cost that would put it out of the reach of most potential customers. I was looking forward to seeing a quality POF model that was produced domestically. But, when I saw the cost I was totally disappointed. Spending that amount of money for a kit just seems wrong. Ship modeling should not be an elitist hobby that is only available to those with unlimited funds.
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To me, any kit manufacturer is first of all - the business. As with all companies, unless non-profit, the main goal is to get revenues (profits). If you divide the production by components, the labor is the most cost-effective component. If you want a high-quality kit, you will have to hire a good designer, it doesn't have to be expensive, but most likely an experienced CAD\3D designer will ask for a high price. Then, the cost of material and processing costs. As you mentioned, the Pearwood and Castello would be among the most expensive, Cherry and Alaskan Yellow Cedar is probably next in range. If the manufacturers cannot process the wood themself they have to source it somewhere so add the cost for that. Fittings\PE and rigging are yet other components that add to the total cost. Not to mention the manual and packaging - they are not free, though. And yet the most important component, without it the business is useless, it is revenues!

So....here we go...calculate the total and you will conclude, that unless it is a one-man operation, for the entire production I don't see how domestic kits could be affordable unless the future kit is a small boat and small scale.
 
tossedman said:
I would call this particular model a wonderful scratch build.
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This particular model is a scratch-build or a pilot (prototype) model. The pilot model has its valuable purpose: once the kit is completely designed, and all parts are made while assembling, the modeler verifies the precision for all parts, verifies the assembly steps, and writes the manual. Here the builder has a choice to report discrepancies (if any) to the designer for later choice of their corrections (if possible). However, as you mentioned in your post (below)
tossedman said:
He is developing a kit, or a partial kit for sale.
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The next models built from this kit would be counted as assembly!
 
Jimsky said:
This particular model is a scratch-build, or a pilot model (if such). The pilot model has its valuable purpose: once the kit is completely designed, and all parts are made while assembling, the modeler verifies the precision for all parts, verifies the assembly steps, and writes the manual. Here the builder has a choice to report discrepancies (if any) to the designer for later choice of their corrections (if possible). However, as you mentioned in your post (below)

The next models built from this kit would be counted as assembly!
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Indeed they will. And that doesn't take anything away from some people's enjoyment of the hobby. Not everyone has a laser cutter or even a saw. Providing kits lets many more people enjoy the hobby. This just happens to be a prototype for a high end kit. You can also buy high end kits for cars, airplanes and trains and almost anything else.

This thread is about the prototype. Its title is POF SLOOP HMS SPEEDWELL 1752 - PROTOTYPE WIP. What is being shown here is excellent work and is indeed commendable. We're picking at nits here.
 
tossedman said:
We're picking at nits here.
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... we don't! A wonderfully built model itself doesn't justify the high cost of the kit. There are Ferrari and Toyota both are cars and suit the same purpose of driving to destinations. But how many can afford to drive a Ferrari? I am sure this kit will find a potential buyer, but most of us will have to enjoy this build log..., only. ;)
 
I think a kit by Chuck Passaro is worth a bit of a premium, he's done some pretty excellent stuff in the past. But the discussion about price is moot. It wasn't available when it said it would be, my inquiry about timeline went unanswered, and then one day it was out of stock and has been ever since. I guess someone can afford it. I waited for a couple of months but was in the market and finally caved in and bought an overseas POF kit to keep me busy. Maybe by the time I'm done, I'll have saved up enough milk money to buy Chuck's kit.
 
I have to say I don't get the objections here. There are still thousands of cheap plastic kits out there on the shelves, kids that are interested will still buy them. Ditto low cost wood kits and so on. Once you start getting into the $300 - $500 kit price, I seriously doubt these are within the grasp of kids unless they have the mother of all Saturday jobs. Anyone that scratch builds is going to probably do that anyway. Don't you think these more expensive builds are already the province of 'serious' hobbyists?

For me, this $2000 kit is just an extension of the $300 - $500 kit, but presumably much more highly detailed and accurate, at that price. I imagine too that there would be far less need to 'polish up' the kit parts, that you're getting parts to the standard that Chuck himself would use. People will either choose to buy it or not and it makes no difference to the rest of us.

Bottom line for me: Beautiful, beautiful work, and I wish I had that talent.
 
I would consider this model, even at this price. I have been drawn to the quality of the Vanguard kits, and Chuck seems to have found a niche where quality and more rapid construction coincide. At the tender age of 73 with both Golf and Trap shooting competing for my time, a kit like this may be on my list, but a smaller scale would be better as I have space constraints.
Speaking of cost have you seen the latest plastic offering of the 1/350 USS Missouri at $600?
 
palladian said:
I would consider this model, even at this price. I have been drawn to the quality of the Vanguard kits, and Chuck seems to have found a niche where quality and more rapid construction coincide. At the tender age of 73 with both Golf and Trap shooting competing for my time, a kit like this may be on my list, but a smaller scale would be better as I have space constraints.
Speaking of cost have you seen the latest plastic offering of the 1/350 USS Missouri at $600?
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The JoyYard Missouri is $512 includes shipping and tons of extra PE detailing set and wooden deck
 
palladian said:
即使是这个价格，我也会考虑这个型号。我被 Vanguard 套件的质量所吸引，而 Chuck 似乎找到了一个让质量和更快的构建相一致的利基市场。我已经 73 岁了，高尔夫和飞碟射击都在争夺我的时间，像这样的装备可能会在我的清单上，但由于空间有限，较小的尺寸会更好。
说到成本，您是否见过售价 600 美元的 1/350 USS 密苏里号最新塑料产品？
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A model company that I really like, I have Missouri Montana Wisconsin
 
Kevin the Lubber said:
I have to say I don't get the objections here. There are still thousands of cheap plastic kits out there on the shelves, kids that are interested will still buy them. Ditto low cost wood kits and so on. Once you start getting into the $300 - $500 kit price, I seriously doubt these are within the grasp of kids unless they have the mother of all Saturday jobs. Anyone that scratch builds is going to probably do that anyway. Don't you think these more expensive builds are already the province of 'serious' hobbyists?

For me, this $2000 kit is just an extension of the $300 - $500 kit, but presumably much more highly detailed and accurate, at that price. I imagine too that there would be far less need to 'polish up' the kit parts, that you're getting parts to the standard that Chuck himself would use. People will either choose to buy it or not and it makes no difference to the rest of us.

Bottom line for me: Beautiful, beautiful work, and I wish I had that talent.
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Well considered comment. Thumbsup
 
tossedman said:
I would call this particular model a wonderful scratch build. It is construction and not an assembly. As it is a prototype, the plans were drawn by the builder. He cut out the parts himself. He used a laser cutter to cut them but that requires a particular set of skills using both the computer and laser cutter, understanding how to best use that tool with different thicknesses and kinds of wood. He had to draw the parts to be laser cut and to make them fit properly needs to take into account the kerf of the laser and the fact that the laser cuts are not perfectly vertical. The fit of parts may require sanding to compensate for this. The design of said parts needs to take into account the need for sanding in order to make them fit correctly. Using a saw to cut out parts for such a build requires a different set of skills. either way, you are just using a tool to cut the wood.

The designer and builder of this model is doing a superb job of scratch building. Don't take anything away from his choice of tools. He is developing a kit, or a partial kit for sale. It is indeed an expensive kit for the most discerning of builders with deep pockets but the Model Shipways kit of the 18th Century Longboat can be had for about $60 and is by the same designer. I think we need to see the market develop at both ends. Easy models for the beginners and complicated, expensive models for the experienced builder. Scratch builders are beyond either of these in my mind. They are in a class of their own but it doesn't take away from those who buy and build kits or those that buy partial kits.
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I would like to point out that Chuck did not draw the plans himself, but was allowed to use them with the agreement of David and Greg, the authors of the books. The kit is very expensive, and since I build my models myself (POF), I opted for the books for $160.

eZy Watermark_26-06-2022_10-54-31PM.jpeg
 
Tobias said:
The kit is very expensive, and since I build my models myself (POF), I opted for the books for $160.
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You will be happy to read those books, mon ami. I also purchased them a while back (both volumes). There is a wealth of information there. Not sure if I will build such a model, but who knows...Life is full of surprises ;)
 
Tobias said:
I would like to point out that Chuck did not draw the plans himself, but was allowed to use them with the agreement of David and Greg, the authors of the books. The kit is very expensive, and since I build my models myself (POF), I opted for the books for $160.

View attachment 446116
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These are good books - and I guess Greg and David also showed the hanging and lodging knees......
 
Ahoy!
Beautifully built test of SPEEDWELL model. Masterly level shown here. I don't understand all these entries about the price of the set. Anyone who builds models from scratch knows how much the materials cost.

Information for modelers building a Speedwell model from scratch. The decorative elements for Speedwell model are available from Szkutnik Team.
speed2.jpgspeed3.jpgspeed1.jpgspped4.jpg
 
SZKUTNIK said:
Ahoy!
Beautifully built test of SPEEDWELL model. Masterly level shown here. I don't understand all these entries about the price of the set. Anyone who builds models from scratch knows how much the materials cost.

Information for modelers building a Speedwell model from scratch. The decorative elements for Speedwell model are available from Szkutnik Team.
View attachment 446190View attachment 446191View attachment 446192View attachment 446193
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I don't want to harp on about the price, it may be high and the costs may be justified in part and everyone who brings something to market wants to make money. However, the costs for building something yourself are significantly lower than the price stated here.

I have already calculated the wood required to build Speedwell on a scale of 1:36. The types of wood used are pear, boxwood, black hornbeam and various other woods (small items), which comes to around €350. For example, a pear board measuring 10cm x 100cm x0.5cm costs €8.60. For La Palme I needed 6 boards to build the frame. The inner planks are strips measuring 1.5mm x 6mm x 1000mm. A bundle of 10 costs €7.10. A strip of the same size boxwood costs €0.95. Various other sizes 4mm x 4mm etc. (pear) are about the same price. €350 to $2500 is a huge price difference in my opinion. What I have to say, of course, is that you need all the tools, which cost a lot of money, and the time you have to invest.

Very nice work in the rest of @SZKUTNIK
 
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Tobias said:
I would like to point out that Chuck did not draw the plans himself, but was allowed to use them with the agreement of David and Greg, the authors of the books. The kit is very expensive, and since I build my models myself (POF), I opted for the books for $160.

View attachment 446116
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I have to correct myself, the plans were redrawn by Chuck. If we look at the original plans and then those by Chuck, they differ in the frame construction, which has been adapted. You could also say they have been simplified a little, but that doesn't detract from it. I would like to add that what I have seen so far seems to be of very high quality. I know two original Syren models that I have already seen in real life and they were of very high quality. I also know the quality of the wood that Hobbymill.eu (Vahur) offers, sets for building the Syren models and anyone who has ever ordered from Vahur knows what I am talking about. As for the price, yes it is expensive and if you order from Germany you have to pay customs and import or VAT, which increases the price even further. I have also had this with a slightly cheaper kit from China or the rest of the world that is not part of the EU. All in all, I wish Chuck every success with this kit.
 
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