Pumps??

[Don Case]

Here is a picture of the center of the upper deck of the Discovery1789 from when she was being converted to a bomb. This is a cropped portion of RMG J2024, the mast is dead center. What I'm wondering about is the layout right aft(left) of the mast. I can see what I think are the bitts. They are the four squares in a square. What are the four squares in a line just forward of the ladder way? I'm kinda thinking pumps but then what are the four round things?

 

[Uwek]

Here is a picture of the center of the upper deck of the Discovery1789 from when she was being converted to a bomb. This is a cropped portion of RMG J2024, the mast is dead center. What I'm wondering about is the layout right aft(left) of the mast. I can see what I think are the bitts. They are the four squares in a square. What are the four squares in a line just forward of the ladder way? I'm kinda thinking pumps but then what are the four round things?

View attachment 299584

It seems, that there is a little bit a messy drawing with old and new planned status overlapped
but somehow, together with the other available drawings it is somehow possible to follow

I tried to make the arrows showing the same on top view and cross section with the same colour




green and red and black lines - I think there are two maybe three different status of design shown



so the four small squares in a row are pillars for the upper deck
and the four small circles are each time two pumps which were moved during the reconstruction, so depending on your time of your model the pumps are the blue or the purple location.

But it is hard to work or see everything on the low resolution downloads

I recommend that you order the original in scale 1:48 from the museum - with them you should be really able to see all the details and also able to read the texts given on the drawings
Also you can really take correct measures out of the drawings

 

[Don Case]

Thanks Uwe. The notes say that J2024 is the "proposed" in green and J2023 is the "as fitted" so J2024 is first. I've kind of decided that green is proposed, black is as is/unchanged and red is old, possibly removed. Does that sound realistic? Sometimes it's really hard to distinguish between black and green so that doesn't help.

Anyway it looks like they moved the bitts ahead so they could install the four pillars and that necessitated moving the pump tubes forward. Do you think maybe there was just one pump? Each pump has an up and a down tube and J023 only shows two tubes. Why would they need four pillars to replace the bitts. Actually this doesn't concern me as I am only interested in what "was". Darn, I keep getting wound up in what they're doing and lose track of my goal which is to see what it was like before these drawings. J510 shows the original deck but it's so incomplete there just isn't much there. I'm rambling, I'll stop now.

As to ordering a better drawing I just have a hard time justifying $100 for one drawing especially when so little of the drawing actually applies to the Discovery as I'm trying to make her. And you can't just buy one, a guy would want all 6. It's tempting but I'm just not sure I would get much more than I already have and to spend up to $600 to possibly wrap garbage in just goes against my cheapness/budget. I hope you can understand that.

 

[Uwek]

Do you think maybe there was just one pump? Each pump has an up and a down tube and J023 only shows two tubes. Why would they need four pillars to replace the bitts. Actually this doesn't concern me as I am only interested in what "was". Darn, I keep getting wound up in what they're doing and lose track of my goal which is to see what it was like before these drawings. J510 shows the original deck but it's so incomplete there just isn't much there. I'm rambling, I'll stop now.

I think these are two pumps, each one with only one "tube"
I think she had elmtree pumps by suction

such one



and not with two tubes per paump with the chain

 

[Frank48]

It seems, that there is a little bit a messy drawing with old and new planned status overlapped
but somehow, together with the other available drawings it is somehow possible to follow

I tried to make the arrows showing the same on top view and cross section with the same colour

View attachment 299612

View attachment 299613
green and red and black lines - I think there are two maybe three different status of design shown

View attachment 299614

so the four small squares in a row are pillars for the upper deck
and the four small circles are each time two pumps which were moved during the reconstruction, so depending on your time of your model the pumps are the blue or the purple location.

But it is hard to work or see everything on the low resolution downloads

I recommend that you order the original in scale 1:48 from the museum - with them you should be really able to see all the details and also able to read the texts given on the drawings
Also you can really take correct measures out of the drawings

 

[Don Case]

I think these are two pumps, each one with only one "tube"
I think she had elmtree pumps by suction

such one

View attachment 299814 View attachment 299816

and not with two tubes per paump with the chain

View attachment 299815

That's a good thought. I was under the impression that by 1789 they could have used chain pumps and by the time the drawing were done in 1798 they probably did. Was the choice of chain/elm done according to ship size? Elm pumps will sure be easier to build Thanks for your help Uwe.

Edit- I just re-read Goodwins EMOW pg 142 section on pumps and it says that 4th rate and lower used elm pumps for the bilge pumps. I guess I missed that the first time. Now I have to change out the mast step.
Thanks again

 

[Don Case]

View attachment 299817

I have that drawing Frank, thanks

 

[Don Case]

Uwe, if I can stretch your patience a bit more. The four pillars you marked in green. It's looking to me that they were there originally(they are black) and they were removed when she was converted to a bomb.(I think the bitts replaced them) Can you think of any reason to have four pillars when one probably would have supported anything that was on the quarterdeck? Could it just have been decoration?
Thanks a lot

 

[Don Case]

More confusing info. I remembered somewhere in Vancouver's journal that he had mentioned a lot of water in the hold and that they had pumped it out. I went looking and fortunately found it. A quote from November 23 1791 says

" The hand pumps were soon in order; and, to relieve the ship as soon as possible, the cross piece of the bitts was unshipped, the launch got forward, and with the chain pumps the vessel by seven o'clock was made perfectly dry"

I'm assuming the hand pumps were elm pumps, I dunno. It sounds like she had both elm and chain pumps. So much for drawings as primary sources It sounds like they had to move the cross piece and the launch in order to use the chain pumps. I'm really puzzled now.

 

[Uwek]

I have no odea..... sorry.
Maybe these four square are two chain pumps - could be - what is wondering me, that the pumps would be unusually moved away from the mast foot.

 

[Don Case]

This is what I get for trying a model with such limited info. I have a drawing by John McKay and this is his take on that area. It looks like four pump tubes, two octagonal and two round. I've e-mailed John and he can't remember much about drawing these but his renditions are the only ones that include the greenhouse on the quarterdeck so he did some research.

 

[Don Case]

OK I have to make a decision here and I found that if I overlay the picture that Uwe marked up with McKay's drawing everything lines up and it looks to me that the green squares are for the chain pumps. the blue holes are a mistake(they're kind of smeared), red squares are the bitts(topsail sheet??) and the purple holes are the elm pumps.
As to the quote I'm thinking that the launch sat on the deck in the waist and in order to fit the cranks to man the chain pumps they had to move the bitts cross pieces and the launch. Possibly the cisterns on the chain pumps were not normally fitted in order to give room around the bitts.
I need a story to justify my building



Thank you very much Uwe I think you helped more than you know and I really appreciate it.

 

[Frank48]

OK I have to make a decision here and I found that if I overlay the picture that Uwe marked up with McKay's drawing everything lines up and it looks to me that the green squares are for the chain pumps. the blue holes are a mistake(they're kind of smeared), red squares are the bitts(topsail sheet??) and the purple holes are the elm pumps.
As to the quote I'm thinking that the launch sat on the deck in the waist and in order to fit the cranks to man the chain pumps they had to move the bitts cross pieces and the launch. Possibly the cisterns on the chain pumps were not normally fitted in order to give room around the bitts.
I need a story to justify my building

View attachment 300167

Thank you very much Uwe I think you helped more than you know and I really appreciate it.

Hi Don Caso, see if this drawing solves your problem

 

[Don Case]

Interesting Frank. Can you tell me the ship's name, country and date, please

 

[Frank48]

Interesting Frank. Can you tell me the ship's name, country and date, please

the only news are those words on the drawing

 

[Uwek]

Interesting Frank. Can you tell me the ship's name, country and date, please

It seems that this is a 36 gun frigate "Bornholm" - but I could not find directly the drawing or more information

I think this one is a different one:

Bornholm (1774) | lex.dk – Trap Danmark

Fakta Navn: Bornholm Type: Fregat Nationalitet: Dansk Konstruktør: Henrik Gerner Stabelafløbning: 1774 Bornholm var en dansk fregat. Fregatten blev bygget under konstruktør Henrik Gerner. Byggestedet er angivet i Orlogsbasen som Nyholm. Konstruktionen blev påbegyndt i 1773 og fuldført i 1775...

trap.lex.dk

seems that there were 4 Bornholms existing


But the two new drawings are making the research more clear - I think



The pump on the left side has an octagon shape and is a normal one with a pump handle (blue arrow)
Important is, that this pump weas going through the planking and was used for seawater for fire fighting and deck cleaning purposes

On the right side is a chain pump shown - it has not a round shape like you wrote, but square (so you can see only the face side) ( yellow arrow)
this pump is the bilge pump

and you can see thes same two different types of the pumps at the drawing from Frank (the one crossed blue arrow is not valid)

 

[Don Case]

Except, I think, on the McKay drawing where he shows the octagonal(blue) tubes there are four holes and two holes for the round (yellow) tubes. This makes me think that the blue ones are the chain pumps. I don't see the handle you mentioned. Unfortunately he didn't do a deck drawing. I also have to keep reminding myself that McKay only had access to the same drawings we have and so a lot of what's in his drawings is conjecture, educated conjecture for sure, but still conjecture. I will definitely defer to his drawings if I can't find a solid alternative. I don't know, I just can't get around the way the holes are laid out in J024. J024 has four square holes(or possibly beams as you said earlier) and two round holes by the mast. A chain pump has two tubes so the four holes fits there. The two round holes are right beside the mast so I don't think there is room for chain pumps there. That looks more like elm pumps to me. I'm goin to have to get around this somehow and I guess it doesn't matter what I put where and I have a 50/50 chance of being right. Thanks for all your interest and help. I appreciate it.

 

[Frank48]

Except, I think, on the McKay drawing where he shows the octagonal(blue) tubes there are four holes and two holes for the round (yellow) tubes. This makes me think that the blue ones are the chain pumps. I don't see the handle you mentioned. Unfortunately he didn't do a deck drawing. I also have to keep reminding myself that McKay only had access to the same drawings we have and so a lot of what's in his drawings is conjecture, educated conjecture for sure, but still conjecture. I will definitely defer to his drawings if I can't find a solid alternative. I don't know, I just can't get around the way the holes are laid out in J024. J024 has four square holes(or possibly beams as you said earlier) and two round holes by the mast. A chain pump has two tubes so the four holes fits there. The two round holes are right beside the mast so I don't think there is room for chain pumps there. That looks more like elm pumps to me. I'm goin to have to get around this somehow and I guess it doesn't matter what I put where and I have a 50/50 chance of being right. Thanks for all your interest and help. I appreciate it.

Good evening, see if this can help you

 

[Don Case]

Thanks Frank. is this the same ship you posted above? You can see the elm pump from both the front elevation and the side elevation but you can only see the chain pump from the front elevation. So in the side elevation the chain pump is either hiding behind the mast or it's off the page, probably to the left. If you have the whole drawing can you see the chain pump in the side elevation anywhere?

 

[Frank48]

Thanks Frank. is this the same ship you posted above? You can see the elm pump from both the front elevation and the side elevation but you can only see the chain pump from the front elevation. So in the side elevation the chain pump is either hiding behind the mast or it's off the page, probably to the left. If you have the whole drawing can you see the chain pump in the side elevation anywhere?

I'm sorry I didn't notice