question about interaction of yards and shrouds

[icecreamviking]

I've been making a digital model of a square rigged frigate (L'Hermione) with the goal of making it as close to fully adjustable as I can, and I'm a bit perplexed by the shrouds, particularly the mainshrouds. It seems to me that even with the Catharpins bracing the shrouds back away from the yards, I can only sweep the main yard about 15 degrees either way before it intersects the foremost shroud. even if I push the shrouds back farther than they would ever go in reality (pictured below), I can still only achieve around 25 or so degrees or rotation.

I am having trouble finding the answers to this question despite a large body of reference on rigging. do yards simply press the foremost shrouds out of their way at the more extreme sail angles? am I under a misapprehension about how freely the yards actually have to rotate? are the Catharpins mean to draw the shrouds inwards as well as aftwards? (pictured. I realize the answer is likely no, according to a lot of models and photo reference of real ships, but its hard to say for sure given the amount of rope on screen confusing my eye). I see pictures that appear to show all the yards angled about 45 degrees in a close reach, is this an illusion caused by the focal length of the camera?

lastly, have I simply been a fool and do I have my yard slung far too close to the mast? my current rig is sitting nearly nose to nose with the fish on the mast, but I suppose the truss might hang as much as half a meter or so forward?

attached are some images showing my present position, the shrouds have been moved back to an exaggerated degree and I have severed them just below the bight-loops to show where they ought to be linked. the Catharpins and futtocks are omitted so the image is as clear as possible.

 

[Korsan]

I've been making a digital model of a square rigged frigate (L'Hermione) with the goal of making it as close to fully adjustable as I can, and I'm a bit perplexed by the shrouds, particularly the mainshrouds. It seems to me that even with the Catharpins bracing the shrouds back away from the yards, I can only sweep the main yard about 15 degrees either way before it intersects the foremost shroud. even if I push the shrouds back farther than they would ever go in reality (pictured below), I can still only achieve around 25 or so degrees or rotation.

I am having trouble finding the answers to this question despite a large body of reference on rigging. do yards simply press the foremost shrouds out of their way at the more extreme sail angles? am I under a misapprehension about how freely the yards actually have to rotate? are the Catharpins mean to draw the shrouds inwards as well as aftwards? (pictured. I realize the answer is likely no, according to a lot of models and photo reference of real ships, but its hard to say for sure given the amount of rope on screen confusing my eye). I see pictures that appear to show all the yards angled about 45 degrees in a close reach, is this an illusion caused by the focal length of the camera?

lastly, have I simply been a fool and do I have my yard slung far too close to the mast? my current rig is sitting nearly nose to nose with the fish on the mast, but I suppose the truss might hang as much as half a meter or so forward?

attached are some images showing my present position, the shrouds have been moved back to an exaggerated degree and I have severed them just below the bight-loops to show where they ought to be linked. the Catharpins and futtocks are omitted so the image is as clear as possible.

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[Korsan]

Perhaps the angle of the main mast is to vertical to the deck

 

[Y.T.]

This is very good question. What you are reporting is a fact. Apparently square sales inherently are not designed to be turned more than small degree off perpendicular to the ship’s keel. Were they able to, the ship would capsize under side wind.

 

[Walterone]

"He [Jack Aubrey] took two or three turns, looking up at the yards: they were braced as sharp as the main and foremast shrouds would allow, but they were not as sharp as they might have been in an ideal world, and he made a mental note to tell the bosun to set up cross catharpings – they might gain three or four degrees."

Master & Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

 

[icecreamviking]

"He [Jack Aubrey] took two or three turns, looking up at the yards: they were braced as sharp as the main and foremast shrouds would allow, but they were not as sharp as they might have been in an ideal world, and he made a mental note to tell the bosun to set up cross catharpings – they might gain three or four degrees."

Master & Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

I really need to re-read these books. the first run through and about 50% of everything written was like Star Trek engineering jargon to me, but I can actually understand this quote now. thank you for digging that up!

 

[El Capi]

I've been making a digital model of a square rigged frigate (L'Hermione) with the goal of making it as close to fully adjustable as I can, and I'm a bit perplexed by the shrouds, particularly the mainshrouds. It seems to me that even with the Catharpins bracing the shrouds back away from the yards, I can only sweep the main yard about 15 degrees either way before it intersects the foremost shroud. even if I push the shrouds back farther than they would ever go in reality (pictured below), I can still only achieve around 25 or so degrees or rotation.

I am having trouble finding the answers to this question despite a large body of reference on rigging. do yards simply press the foremost shrouds out of their way at the more extreme sail angles? am I under a misapprehension about how freely the yards actually have to rotate? are the Catharpins mean to draw the shrouds inwards as well as aftwards? (pictured. I realize the answer is likely no, according to a lot of models and photo reference of real ships, but its hard to say for sure given the amount of rope on screen confusing my eye). I see pictures that appear to show all the yards angled about 45 degrees in a close reach, is this an illusion caused by the focal length of the camera?

lastly, have I simply been a fool and do I have my yard slung far too close to the mast? my current rig is sitting nearly nose to nose with the fish on the mast, but I suppose the truss might hang as much as half a meter or so forward?

attached are some images showing my present position, the shrouds have been moved back to an exaggerated degree and I have severed them just below the bight-loops to show where they ought to be linked. the Catharpins and futtocks are omitted so the image is as clear as possible.

View attachment 541909

View attachment 541910

View attachment 541911

The lower Yards does not move up and down at the dead center line, and they max be moved sideward about 15%. Then it will come in contact with the 1 . shroud, that is why the 1st shroud isSeized compleatly from top to buttom. el capi

 

[Kurt Konrath]

I've been making a digital model of a square rigged frigate (L'Hermione) with the goal of making it as close to fully adjustable as I can, and I'm a bit perplexed by the shrouds, particularly the mainshrouds. It seems to me that even with the Catharpins bracing the shrouds back away from the yards, I can only sweep the main yard about 15 degrees either way before it intersects the foremost shroud. even if I push the shrouds back farther than they would ever go in reality (pictured below), I can still only achieve around 25 or so degrees or rotation.

I am having trouble finding the answers to this question despite a large body of reference on rigging. do yards simply press the foremost shrouds out of their way at the more extreme sail angles? am I under a misapprehension about how freely the yards actually have to rotate? are the Catharpins mean to draw the shrouds inwards as well as aftwards? (pictured. I realize the answer is likely no, according to a lot of models and photo reference of real ships, but its hard to say for sure given the amount of rope on screen confusing my eye). I see pictures that appear to show all the yards angled about 45 degrees in a close reach, is this an illusion caused by the focal length of the camera?

lastly, have I simply been a fool and do I have my yard slung far too close to the mast? my current rig is sitting nearly nose to nose with the fish on the mast, but I suppose the truss might hang as much as half a meter or so forward?

attached are some images showing my present position, the shrouds have been moved back to an exaggerated degree and I have severed them just below the bight-loops to show where they ought to be linked. the Catharpins and futtocks are omitted so the image is as clear as possible.

View attachment 541909

View attachment 541910

View attachment 541911

Do you have the proper Rake of the masts, as they were not true vertical to the deck, and often had 5-10 aft rake, which allowed the shrouds come down clear of the top.

 

[icecreamviking]

Do you have the proper Rake of the masts, as they were not true vertical to the deck, and often had 5-10 aft rake, which allowed the shrouds come down clear of the top.

I don't! that should fix a lot of problems. the mast diagram i'm using either has an extremely subtle rake, or none at all (not the only way in which it is somewhat reductive, it imagines the viewer has supplemental material/experience and is merely meant to show the scale of the parts)

 

[AllanKP69]

I really need to re-read these books

A good source might be non-fiction works on sailing like David Steel's The Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship 1794. It is available free on line from the San Francisco Maritime National Park. https://maritime.org/doc/steel/
Allan

 

[iutar]

 

[icecreamviking]

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Thanks for catching that detail! At some point I accidentally inverted those and you just now made me aware of my mistake!

 

[johnv]

I asked the same question when I was rigging my Mamoli Constitution. An experienced ship modeler friend, replied that if the spar needed to be more angled the foremost shroud involved could be slackened at the deadeyes. I suppose that is why the ratlines are not attached to the foremost shroud on each mast.

 

[El Capi]

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Fantastic images from a real sailing ship. I myself was on a two-week tour on "LILLA DAN", where we should participate. It can be seen clearly hete, that the foot step are about 5 x thinner than the shrouds

 

[icecreamviking]

I asked the same question when I was rigging my Mamoli Constitution. An experienced ship modeler friend, ("chestcutter" on SOS), replied that if the spar needed to be more angled the foremost shroud involved could be slackened at the deadeyes. I suppose that is why the ratlines are not attached to the foremost shroud on each mast.

oooh that explains a lot! when I was putting in ratlines I was very curious about where they were omitted and why, and it's hard to find the logic behind those decisions recorded. that's a very cool detail

 

[icecreamviking]

Fantastic images from a real sailing ship. I myself was on a two-week tour on "LILLA DAN", where we should participate. It can be seen clearly hete, that the foot step are about 5 x thinner than the shrouds

luckily I have the ability to adjust the diameter of all my cordage at will, even after it's already been tied in knots. I'm just setting it all up to be functional first, but as you point out, I think I need to reduce the gauge of the ratlines

 

[iutar]

It seems to me that even with the Catharpins bracing the shrouds back away from the yards, I can only sweep the main yard about 15 degrees either way before it intersects the foremost shroud. even

It's all very simple: the ropes that pulled the yard to the mast (truss pendants) were loosened.

The more you let that rope down, the further the yard moved away from the mast, and the more yard could be laid on the shrouds.

 

[iutar]

typical position of yards relative to the wind (from the French archive)

 

[johnv]

It's all very simple: the ropes that pulled the yard to the mast (truss pendants) were loosened.

The more you let that rope down, the further the yard moved away from the mast, and the more yard could be laid on the shrouds.

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Makes sense. What is source of the photos? They are very good.

 

[Buhochico]

I asked the same question when I was rigging my Mamoli Constitution. An experienced ship modeler friend, replied that if the spar needed to be more angled the foremost shroud involved could be slackened at the deadeyes. I suppose that is why the ratlines are not attached to the foremost shroud on each mast.

That is correct, and also the yard was not joined, fixed to the yard , the truss pendants were loosened and wind tends to separate. In a model you can put a wire joining but keeping separate yard from mast.