Question: Why do some people feel model ship building needs a wider audience?

[Jimsky]

I get your point Jim and cannot disagree. I do wonder (or maybe it is more hope) that if it would come across more encouraging than disparaging if it were spoken rather than written since we cannot read into the tone. I agree that it can come across as unfriendly if not downright mean but I truly hope that is not their intention.
Allan

Hi Allan,
Thank you, I really appreciate your understanding. You're right that tone can be hard to read in written posts, and I believe, like you, that most of the time there’s no bad intention behind it. Many kit builders do value and appreciate the suggestions and expertise shared by others, not just scratch builders; it’s often a great way to learn and grow. But at the same time, there are builders who simply want to enjoy the hobby, build for their own satisfaction, and are perfectly happy without diving deep into historical accuracy or heavy research. And that's perfectly fine too, IMHO. In the end, modeling should be about personal enjoyment, however each individual defines it.

 

[Jimsky]

I always judged my models by the amount they sold for at auction. That may have made me mercenary, but certainly not elitist, because it was only occasionally that I got decent prices. I know that a lot of shipmodellers think it a mortal sin to sell their models for money. But one has got to live. In late 1992, after 31 years at sea, it was all getting too much for me, and I gave up the rat-race to become self-employed as a ship modelmaker,and maritime historian.

I see where you're coming from, but I believe it's important to make a clear distinction between commercial modeling and hobby modeling. These are two very different worlds, each with its own goals and standards.
Also, when it comes to the "value" of a model, or anything else really, it's purely defined by what someone is willing to pay for it, not necessarily by its quality, accuracy, or craftsmanship. Price doesn't always reflect skill; sometimes it's driven by market trends, personal taste, or even emotional appeal. In the hobby world, the real "value" often lies in the enjoyment, dedication, and learning that each builder experiences, and that's something that can’t always be measured in dollars or other currencies.

 

[Gilles Korent]

Altough, I have read evey comment, at this point, I will only reply to this one post (#14) for now because it reflects the presumed natural divide between kit and scratch builders; although the original question does separate the two camps.
Furthermore, is forum membership and active participation within these forums a indicator for the need of a wider audience?

That question is something of a trap because it invites the reader to judge the motives of other people, other members, and must inevitably give rise to bad feelings on the part of those being judged.
I may be reading into something that is not there, but honestly, the question (Why do some people feel model ship building needs a wider audience?) is as loaded or as much of a trap as one wants to make it.
No juging on my part.

I personally have no particular feelings about the expansion or decline of the hobby. To me it's not particularly important what other people do or think about their hobbies, those amusing ways we choose to fill our leisure time.
So, why did I post this? Maybe I wanted to add the voice of the indifferent majority...
And that is a great answer, probably the voice of the majority.​

Further comments on my part...

I am on the side of the membership who is within the range of "indefferent" to "I do not think a wider audience is needed".
I have had a personal interest in wooden ship building for over 55 years as I grew up watching my Dad building his Protecteur from plans. Since then I always wanted to build my own ship but was only to do so some years later, around 1982, with a model of the sovereign of the Seas (scratched built based on the plans from the Sergal kit). I am not sure what the statistics would be regarding popularity of this hobby back then, although I do believe that the number of modelers has increased from these earlier days to now.
Fast forward in time, my first online exposure to model ship building goes back well over 20 years ago with the Warrior Group and Marine et Modelisme d'Arsenal.
Since then, I have always done my best to promote the hobby and help modelers. As well, for many years I have participated in art show exhibits, showing / selling my work, answering many question about building those models, and hopefully I have "motivated" people to partake in this activity. I have been asked to mentor scratch building modelers.
Since then, I am sure that the number of modelers has been at least stable: more plan sources for the scratch builder, and surely more kit variety for the kit builders. To this, add the availability of more forums with 1000's of members: but I am also aware that different forums share the same membership.... but that would be another subject of dicussion.

I may be a little skeptical when I hear about some wanting to work on widening the audience, and I often think that it has a commercial undertone / goal to it: surely a valid reason for some. I do not think about it as widening the divide between scratch and kit builders, but again, if a devide has been created, widening the audience would also increase that gap: it is simply a numbers game.
I am a scratch builder and have no need or aspiration to diminish the value of kit building. I do not think of myself as part of an elite group, but I am well aware that within each camp there are elite builders: builders who can produce beautiful art work while the majority produces average or below average representation of ships... but I am also aware that beauty is subjective.
To me, sharing a build was to document it (giving as much explanation as possible) so that others may have learned about the techniques I used: knowing that these techniques are just one option among many.

There are numerous silent watchers for every active modeler in every forum. There are many modelers for every modeler registering as a forum member.
Why? likely because many of those silent and unregistered modelers build for their very own enjoyment, with no need for self promotion. Communication (language) may also be an issue for many. All in all, before the internet, modeler solved their own problems their own ways because model building has always been about solving some kind of problem.​

Kindest regards.
G

 

[shipbuilder]

I see where you're coming from, but I believe it's important to make a clear distinction between commercial modeling and hobby modeling. These are two very different worlds, each with its own goals and standards.
Also, when it comes to the "value" of a model, or anything else really, it's purely defined by what someone is willing to pay for it, not necessarily by its quality, accuracy, or craftsmanship. Price doesn't always reflect skill; sometimes it's driven by market trends, personal taste, or even emotional appeal. In the hobby world, the real "value" often lies in the enjoyment, dedication, and learning that each builder experiences, and that's something that can’t always be measured in dollars.

I don't think it ever reflected the quality. Some of my poorest models have gone for astronomical prices, whilst others that I considered excellent, went for next to nothing! I could never figure it out, so gave up trying in the end. They sold for what they sold for - end of story.
But if they went for a very high price, I felt that I was getting something right, even if I couldn't understand why.

 

[Gilles Korent]

Also, when it comes to the "value" of a model, or anything else really, it's purely defined by what someone is willing to pay for it, not necessarily by its quality, accuracy, or craftsmanship. Price doesn't always reflect skill; sometimes it's driven by market trends, personal taste, or even emotional appeal. In the hobby world, the real "value" often lies in the enjoyment, dedication, and learning that each builder experiences, and that's something that can’t always be measured in dollars.

Personal anecdotal experience:
It took well over 1000 hours to build my first large ship model. I never thought of selling it but at the time, I was living in a large house and moved into a much smaller one with no room to display it. As a result, I decided to try to sell it: the ship was not the best thing, but I thought it was decent looking. The ship was put on display for a few days with a "best offer" sign, kind of like an auction. Well, I did not bother listing a base price along with the best offer sign. Only one offer came in, and it was low... very low... actually, it was insulting, even for the year 1984 as the offer was $ 10.00.
The buyer was contacted and lied to...
I was so mad, I decided no one would get that thing.... dismantled part of the deck, enough for the hull to be stuffed with paper and lit a match to it.

A sad story but needless to say, I enjoyed watching it slowly burn to a pile of ashes.

Later, I built other watercraft models... gave them to friends / family... and later had models displayed / sold in galleries, art shows which gave me opportunities for commissioned work. It really started just because of pure enjpoyment in the build...

G.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I don't think it ever reflected the quality. Some of my poorest models have gone for astronomical prices, whilst others that I considered excellent, went for next to nothing! I could never figure it out, so gave up trying in the end. They sold for what they sold for - end of story.
But if they went for a very high price, I felt that I was getting something right, even if I couldn't understand why.

That's because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I haven't sold any models for any amount of money. I expect if I did, they would go for far less than the effort I put into them was worth.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Personal anecdotal experience:
It took well over 1000 hours to build my first large ship model. I never thought of selling it but at the time, I was living in a large house and moved into a much smaller one with no room to display it. As a result, I decided to try to sell it: the ship was not the best thing, but I thought it was decent looking. The ship was put on display for a few days with a "best offer" sign, kind of like an auction. Well, I did not bother listing a base price along with the best offer sign. Only one offer came in, and it was low... very low... actually, it was insulting, even for the year 1984 as the offer was $ 10.00.
The buyer was contacted and lied to...
I was so mad, I decided no one would get that thing.... dismantled part of the deck, enough for the hull to be stuffed with paper and lit a match to it.

A sad story but needless to say, I enjoyed watching it slowly burn to a pile of ashes.

Later, I built other watercraft models... gave them to friends / family... and later had models displayed / sold in galleries, art shows which gave me opportunities for commissioned work. It really started just because of pure enjpoyment in the build...

G.

$10 is certainly and insult, but you BURNT it? OMG. At the very least it could have been given to someone who would appreciate it. I believe it's more healthy for us to build the models for us, not for money. Trying to sell models seems to truly be disappointing.

 

[Jimsky]

Personal anecdotal experience:
It took well over 1000 hours to build my first large ship model. I never thought of selling it but at the time, I was living in a large house and moved into a much smaller one with no room to display it. As a result, I decided to try to sell it: the ship was not the best thing, but I thought it was decent looking. The ship was put on display for a few days with a "best offer" sign, kind of like an auction. Well, I did not bother listing a base price along with the best offer sign. Only one offer came in, and it was low... very low... actually, it was insulting, even for the year 1984 as the offer was $ 10.00.
The buyer was contacted and lied to...
I was so mad, I decided no one would get that thing.... dismantled part of the deck, enough for the hull to be stuffed with paper and lit a match to it.

A sad story but needless to say, I enjoyed watching it slowly burn to a pile of ashes.

Later, I built other watercraft models... gave them to friends / family... and later had models displayed / sold in galleries, art shows which gave me opportunities for commissioned work. It really started just because of pure enjpoyment in the build...

Hi G,
Thanks for sharing your tragic story, though I have to admit, it's a little surprising you'd take my earlier comment as anecdotal experience. Just to be clear: my point still stands. The price someone is willing to pay doesn't automatically reflect the quality of the model or the effort and passion poured into it. BTW, you've actually proven this yourself. Burning your ship out of frustration over a low offer only reinforces how unpredictable and sometimes disconnected public "valuation" can be from the true craftsmanship involved. But if you truly considered her valuable, why not gift her to family or friends instead of putting her on the flame?
At the end of the day, whether someone builds for personal enjoyment, for friends, for galleries, or the marketplace, the heart of the hobby remains the same: passion, not price.

No hard feelings — just setting the record straight.

 

[Philski]

I never bothered too much about it. Kits were beyond me - to big - too expensive and too much of same, same. I scratchbuilt from an early age starting with Underhill's brigantine Leon, in his two volumes of Plank on Frame Modelling books. After completion, I could see no reason to bother with kits at all, and everything was scratch after that. This is my last plank-on-frame, before moving to miniatures - I am not a perfectionist, and liked to work at speed, getting each model completed within a few weeks.

View attachment 516394View attachment 516392

Just remember, while your preference is to scratch build, not that many model builders have the abilities to build from scratch. They may not possess the tools, vision, understanding or how to interpret old drawings and plans for such an endeavor. Scratch building is just a bridge too far, whereas a kit provides materials and step-by-step instructions to the end - having a nice ship that was fun to build and then display! Each has their own abilities. Growing the craft makes more and more models available and maybe, after kit building, an interest in scratch building may evolve. And studying a little history helps.

 

[Gilles Korent]

No hard feelings — just setting the record straight.

Hi Jim,
Do not get me wrong, I agree with what you say about model pricing, etc....
I just wanted to illustrate what can happen when you build for fun and then decide or are forced to dispose / sell for one reason or another.
This said, once I decided to build with the goal of selling, prices were set and listed while keeping haggling out of the equation.
And I might add, I always worked because of the fun it brought to me... I just like to make stuff, be creative, etc.....

In any art discipline, for the average artist who's work is not valued by name recognition, it is very difficult to set a sale price. In years past, I have had experience selling crafts, my photography prints, my paintings, and a variety of watercraft models I have built; including ships.

Another anecdotal experience:
Some years ago, I entered an art show advertising solely my model work. My exhibit space was designed as a showroom for my models with the surrounding walls decorated with some of my paintings (watercolours). I wanted the space to look informal kind of like a private showroom set up in someone's house. Well the show was a 3-day event. Had many conversations about wooden model ship building (probably motivated several show attendees to give it a try). During the first day of the show, I had many people looking at the model but no sales. At the same time, I also had numerous people commenting about my paintings hanging on the wall... had several purchace offers from attendees but told people the paintings were not for sale. The second day was basically the same; no model sales but again offers to buy paintings. The third day started the same way and I quickly realised that if I wanted to sell anything, I would have to show flexibility regarding what exactly was for sale within my space at that stage. In the end, I did not sell any model displayed but did sell all my painting each for a good price.
This was a very special show and it never occured again...

And to keep on subject, most everyone realizes that actually building a ship model is typically a solitary endeavor. Yes builders often need and search helpful information. Because there is a need for dedication, people also look for motivation through the work of other builders. In the end, each builder begins his or her journey with high standards because everyone wants the finish model to look good, somewhat real and a work that compares well against the work of other modelers.
Widening the audience will not change the fact that this information needs to be dug out of the mess of information available out-there.
Photo build logs / journal can be great for motivation, but the fact is that the final product is subject to skills associated to the actual builder at any point during his / her modeling journey. Those skills need to be acquired by practicing and only the builder can improve his / her level of craftmanship. For most, this is done through the course of building models, for some, they are born with it.

The following is the point I alway emphasize when talking to beginer modelers or any modeler for that matter. Dedication is two folds. One needs dedication to complete a model that tmay take an enormous amount of time to complete.
But......
For the scratch builder or the builder who's intent is to improve a commercial kit (kit bashing), the most important aspect of dedication is sticking to the standards set at the start of construction: a good, well built model. If a part or construction step does not follow that standard, it needs to be redone or improved until it does.
The most important aspect of scratch building is making the parts (at the scale set for the overall model)..... it is then followed by assembly. That builder has control over the totallity of the build.
The divide between one group and the other is exactly that: full control but subject to skill level. And do not get me wrong, building kits does require skills.

A wider audience (more people particpating in the activity), a new TV show, a new YT video, a new build log in some forum or any other media will usually not teach you much in that regard. Everything is an individaul's set of choices and one decides what is acceptable within the rendition of a subject.​

Anyway, that's it for now...
Kindest regards.
G.

 

[Gilles Korent]

The other purpose of my original post here (a follow-up" to a question posed by someone else in a different subject line) is to demonstrated that it is basically impossible to keep on subject throughout a series of comments; especially given the nature of the topic, a topic which can be quite delicate if one is to explain a point of view.

A forum is typically designed to stimulate conversation among as many members as possible. Subject lines associated with such general but quite sensitive topic are deemed to divert to something different unless any original poster limits answers to "Yes" or "No".

Just my two-cents.
Best regards.
G

PS: Please keep the conversation going....

 

[Jimsky]

The following is the point I alway emphasize when talking to beginer modelers or any modeler for that matter. Dedication is two folds. One needs dedication to complete a model that tmay take an enormous amount of time to complete.
But......
For the scratch builder or the builder who's intent is to improve a commercial kit (kit bashing), the most important aspect of dedication is sticking to the standards set at the start of construction: a good, well built model. If a part or construction step does not follow that standard, it needs to be redone or improved until it does.
The most important aspect of scratch building is making the parts (at the scale set for the overall model)..... it is then followed by assembly. That builder has control over the totallity of the build.
The divide between one group and the other is exactly that: full control but subject to skill level. And do not get me wrong, building kits does require skills.

Gilles, your point is well taken, and I generally agree with the spirit of dedication you describe. However, I believe there are no universal "standards" that apply to every builder. Whether someone is a scratch builder or assembling a kit, each modeler sets their own personal standards, what I like to call the acceptance level.
There are no specific rules for ship modeling, unless you are building the model for further contest participations. For some, it might mean relentless pursuit of historical accuracy or perfection in craftsmanship. For others, it’s all about the simple joy of building and creating something they are proud of, even if it doesn't meet the historical accuracy, proportions, and scale. Both approaches deserve respect. Don't ya think?
Every model, whether built from scratch, kit-bashed, or straight from a commercial kit, reflects the builder's intent, passion, and personal goals. Skill, dedication, and love for the craft are what truly matter, not whether someone has "full control" over every part from the start, IMHO.

 

[KAYA61]

Actually, when I first opened this topic, there were times when I was pessimistic because of the comments. But now I am glad that I opened such a topic.

 

[JerryTodd]

What was the question again?

 

[shipbuilder]

Just remember, while your preference is to scratch build, not that many model builders have the abilities to build from scratch. They may not possess the tools, vision, understanding or how to interpret old drawings and plans for such an endeavor. Scratch building is just a bridge too far, whereas a kit provides materials and step-by-step instructions to the end - having a nice ship that was fun to build and then display! Each has their own abilities. Growing the craft makes more and more models available and maybe, after kit building, an interest in scratch building may evolve. And studying a little history helps.

Not all that many tools are required, and on the other hand, not many people have enough spare cash to spend hundreds of dollars/pounds on kits that are invariably quite large and time-consuming to build. I believe all ship modellers can scratchbuild, they just talk, or think themselves out of it with "I could never do that," ir "I don't have the skills!" With simple tools like this, I have built two or three foot long models, cutting each frame out individually with the small saw.

 

[shipbuilder]

Personal anecdotal experience:
It took well over 1000 hours to build my first large ship model. I never thought of selling it but at the time, I was living in a large house and moved into a much smaller one with no room to display it. As a result, I decided to try to sell it: the ship was not the best thing, but I thought it was decent looking. The ship was put on display for a few days with a "best offer" sign, kind of like an auction. Well, I did not bother listing a base price along with the best offer sign. Only one offer came in, and it was low... very low... actually, it was insulting, even for the year 1984 as the offer was $ 10.00.
The buyer was contacted and lied to...
I was so mad, I decided no one would get that thing.... dismantled part of the deck, enough for the hull to be stuffed with paper and lit a match to it.

A sad story but needless to say, I enjoyed watching it slowly burn to a pile of ashes.

Later, I built other watercraft models... gave them to friends / family... and later had models displayed / sold in galleries, art shows which gave me opportunities for commissioned work. It really started just because of pure enjpoyment in the build...

G.

I don't have that sort of patience, my best and largest models have only taken just over 100 hours each to build, timed on a stopwatch, and that included making the display case and carrying case!

 

[Namabiiru]

I don’t do social media with the exception of this and one other modeling forum (which I’m about to abandon as it seems to have devolved too much into politics). More people in ship modeling means more people from all over the world who share at least one interest with me and are fun to converse with (most of the time ). For me, that’s all the reason I need to encourage people to get interested.

 

[Gilles Korent]

What was the question again?

Hint taken... the conversation seems to have gone off topic again.
But then again, one takes the time to read the posts, and in what could be seen as sarcasm decides to type something while deliberately omitting to answer the original question.
On the other end, this could also be a lighthearted comment, so forgive me... I am not slamming you for it.

An Administrator / Moderator could very well take the hint that it is time to either sommon participants to get back on topic or closed the thread.
Some may also think that my comment here enters the polital realm and is inappropriate.
It should be taken as another demonstration that it is very difficult to keep a conversation from evolving, all the while the original subject is still open and the membership at large can still simply comment "on subject".
But how many do participate?

Kindest regards.
G.

 

[Gilles Korent]

View attachment 516449

These are basically the tools I used ....
G.

 

[KAYA61]

I agree with your comment and point of view...