Question: Why do some people feel model ship building needs a wider audience?

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
it was not about the ship models i was referring to the artisans who built them, they could have built any model of anything it was about the craftsmanship, skill level attention to the smallest detail. The model was just the end product of their high level of skills that is the gold standard NOT the model itself.
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I see what you're saying about the craftsmanship of historical artisans, and I agree, those builders demonstrated remarkable skill and attention to detail. But I’d gently point out that even among artisans, there was no single “gold standard.” Each craftsman had their own methods, priorities, and personal benchmarks for excellence.
 
Jim, you hit the nail on the head! That’s what separates the artists from the hobbyists. Just like fine art, knowledgeable observers are not only able to appreciate a finely built model but to identify the builder’ distinctive hand.

Roger
 
But I’d gently point out that even among artisans, there was no single “gold standard.” Each craftsman had their own methods, priorities, and personal benchmarks for excellence

i think we are talking about two different things here. I am talking about standards set by any art, craft, trade or profession which has nothing to do with my personal methods, priorities, and personal benchmarks for excellence. In other words, i could have walked into a high profile ad agency and said "well here i am hire me at top wages" ya right i would be asked what my education is, my back round, what clients have i worked with? We here at HIGH END advertising have certain standards you have to meet.
Any tradesmen before they are hired like a mason, carpenter, writer, photographer, graphic artist etc has to meet the level of the standards set by the guild or profession, trade or art
Like here at Metro General hospital we have very high standards we don't give a $%^& what you personally consider a standard if you want to play with the big boys your darn well better be good at what you do.

i am not sure if your saying in the art/craft of model ship building there are no standards, no goals, no levels of accomplishment it is all willy nilly and whatever you do is fine it is nothing but a hobby. Everyone has their own definition of what is good and what is not. The hobby builder who built a kit is equal to the skilled craftsmen who built the admiralty models.
 
Roger Pellett said:
Jim, you hit the nail on the head! That’s what separates the artists from the hobbyists. Just like fine art, knowledgeable observers are not only able to appreciate a finely built model but to identify the builder’ distinctive hand.
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Roger,
That’s a thoughtful comment, and there’s truth in it, but I’d also say it’s not quite so clear-cut. Many so-called “hobbyists” bring extraordinary skill, patience, and artistry to their work, even if they don’t consider themselves “artists.” The line between artist and hobbyist can be pretty thin, and often it’s about how the work is approached rather than any external label. Some scratch builders pour years into historically accurate, high-grade pieces, but never seek recognition, they just love the craft.
So yes, some builders develop a distinctive hand and style, much like painters or composers. But I’d be cautious about drawing hard lines, because even a beginner’s joy and effort can produce something deeply meaningful, and that too deserves respect.

Would you say intention or outcome matters more when calling something “art”?
 
Jimsky said:
I see what you're saying about the craftsmanship of historical artisans, and I agree, those builders demonstrated remarkable skill and attention to detail. But I’d gently point out that even among artisans, there was no single “gold standard.” Each craftsman had their own methods, priorities, and personal benchmarks for excellence.
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And even back through time, within the communities of artisans, there is not doubt classes existed; from top level artisans down; through year of apprenticeship and / or gifted people. I suspect that if they occured back then, artisans' and "hobbyists'" gathering must have presented the same conversations we have today :).
These higher level artisans were either commisioned or employed, 1) for their talents and 2) their naval knowledge.
It is easy to imagine that the period model produced in dockyards as a representation of ships to be built were often of high quality because of their purpose: showing the vessels' lines or some new construction technique. And the history of these models can likely often be traced.
The same applies now, and even more than then, models are build prior to building the real thing. They may not be the same kind of models but.... Would such model be commisioned to some guy learning computer skills in his basement.

As far as craftmanship is concerned, today is the same. So who is the elite? The builders who, in whatever discpline they may practice, are achieving a higher level of craftmanship.
When the dots connect between talent in craftmanship (aquired or otherwise), passion for making stuff and some passion for naval stuff, we witness the birth of high level model production. The latter not being as much of a requirement as many build ships just because ships make nicer displays following their tastes.

Then, there are the often "forgotten vessels", the vessels outside what we know as the age of sail. These are not as popular here as as they may not be built from lumber, vessels not fitted with those old guns and carriages, carvings and featuring sails and engineered spiderwebs to make it go forward . Building these vessels require just as much craftmanship, as much passion for making stuff and most importantly a different passion although they are a segment of naval history.

And then there are all the other models, built from scratch or from kits. Models of really anything one can imagine. The same applies.
One would imagine that somehow, somewhere, some people are having the same type of discussion, so I do not think beating a dead horse here is new, special or regrettable.​

Kindest regards.
G
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
think we are talking about two different things here. I am talking about standards set by any art, craft, trade or profession which has nothing to do with my personal methods, priorities, and personal benchmarks
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In professional trades, guilds, or paid professions, there are established standards that must be met to ensure safety, performance, or client satisfaction, yes! But I think where we're diverging is in what kind of space we're discussing.
Model shipbuilding is, for the vast majority of us, a hobby, not a licensed trade. It’s a craft people pursue for enjoyment, personal satisfaction, and sometimes for artistic expression. Unlike a hospital or ad agency, no one’s life or career is on the line. There's no guild or union evaluating a builder’s credentials before they touch wood.
That doesn’t mean there’s no skill, dedication, or quality in the hobby, far from it. Many builders hold themselves to incredibly high standards. But those are personal standards, not universal ones. And that’s exactly the point: in a creative and personal pursuit like this, people set their own goals. Some aim for historically accurate, competition-ready builds. Others are happy finishing a kit out of the box with pride. Both approaches are valid! Dah...
To compare a hobbyist who builds for joy and fun with an 18th-century royal dockyard modeler is to miss the context entirely. Those dockyard models were built under strict conditions, for specific purposes, mostly as prototypes by means that were actual shipwrights. That doesn't make modern scratch builders or kit assemblers lesser, it makes them different.

So no, it's not "willy-nilly." But it also isn't productive, or fair to impose professional-grade expectations on people who are just here to enjoy the craft.
 
I would fall on the outcome side, and I would also say that despite their imperfections, my models do tend to have a “look” that connects me to them.

I have no artistic talent whatsoever. I am a pure old time engineer. I could not sculpt the carvings for an Eighteenth Century warship, and have NO interest in CAD driven machining or 3D printing of them. I, therefore, derive satisfaction from figuring out mechanical engineering solutions to problems. I make lots of jigs and fixtures.

For example, my current project requires making a pair of Deck Engines, steam driven winches, at 1:96 scale. Each is smaller than a penny.

Roger
 
Roger Pellett said:
I would fall on the outcome side, and I would also say that despite their imperfections, my models do tend to have a “look” that connects me to them.

I have no artistic talent whatsoever. I am a pure old time engineer. I could not sculpt the carvings for an Eighteenth Century warship, and have NO interest in CAD driven machining or 3D printing of them. I, therefore, derive satisfaction from figuring out mechanical engineering solutions to problems. I make lots of jigs and fixtures.

For example, my current project requires making a pair of Deck Engines, steam driven winches, at 1:96 scale. Each is smaller than a penny.

Roger
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Nothing promotes more scratch building or the hobby than a buuld log ,why not start a build log about your build instead complaining day in day out about kits??
 
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Roger Pellett said:
I would fall on the outcome side, and I would also say that despite their imperfections, my models do tend to have a “look” that connects me to them.

I have no artistic talent whatsoever. I am a pure old time engineer. I could not sculpt the carvings for an Eighteenth Century warship, and have NO interest in CAD driven machining or 3D printing of them. I, therefore, derive satisfaction from figuring out mechanical engineering solutions to problems. I make lots of jigs and fixtures.

For example, my current project requires making a pair of Deck Engines, steam driven winches, at 1:96 scale. Each is smaller than a penny.

Roger
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One thing I get out of this hobby is the same satisfaction I used to get when solving engineering problems at work. I am retired but I still love solving technical issues.
 
Gilles Korent said:
As far as craftmanship is concerned, today is the same. So who is the elite? The builders who, in whatever discpline they may practice, are achieving a higher level of craftmanship.
When the dots connect between talent in craftmanship (aquired or otherwise), passion for making stuff and some passion for naval stuff, we witness the birth of high level model production. The latter not being as much of a requirement as many build ships just because ships make nicer displays following their tastes.
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Gilles, your passion for fine craftsmanship is no disagreement there. But I think we keep circling the same drain with this word “elite.” It’s not that high standards or skill shouldn’t be recognized. They absolutely should. But constantly dividing the community into an “elite” and, by implication, everyone else, creates a narrow and unnecessary hierarchy in what is, for most of us, a creative and personal craft such as a hobby.

Craftsmanship exists on a spectrum. Builders evolve through practice, learning, and passion, whether they’re kit assemblers, scratch builders, or historical purists. The moment we start using terms like “elite” as a qualifier for worth or legitimacy, we risk discouraging people from even trying.

Also, let’s not confuse professional standards with hobbyist pursuits. Once someone is hired, employed, or commissioned, especially in the American system, they’re no longer engaging in a hobby. They’re doing a job. That’s a different context altogether, with different rules and expectations as well as standards.

Excellence doesn’t need a pedestal, it just needs dedication. Let’s celebrate skill without turning ship modeling into a private club! BTW, I keep repeating this over and over again. Enough said....
 
Jack
I am fortunate to have a dedicated shop in my basement, a Sherline lathe that doubles as a mill and an understanding wife. That allows mechanical engineering of scale size parts.

Jim,
In my case, the term Elite is one bestowed or usually not bestowed on me by others. I don’t call myself elite. When I arrive at Fiddlers Green, my daughter might appreciate my models because I built them and my daughter-in-law will probably put them in the dumpster as useless clutter.

I do consider myself as a serious amateur and am happy to share my experience and knowledge with others. Hopefully you can understand why it’s frustrating to spend time researching and answering a question only to be told “oh it doesn’t matter, It’s just a hobby.”

Zolly,
Sorry, sometimes the correct answer is “It’s not you, it’s the kit”.

Roger
 
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But constantly dividing the community into an “elite” and, by implication, everyone else, creates a narrow and unnecessary hierarchy in what is, for most of us, a creative and personal craft such as a hobby.

i am one odd ball because i think the exact opposite, If i came across this art/craft and saw an elite level of accomplished craftsmen i would feel honored and privileged to be part of the group at any level. Those who took this to a level of art even beyond anything i personally could accomplish would inspire me to try and achieve higher and higher standards until i reach my limits.
To be part of an average oh-hum group does not inspire.
but hey that is just me i need to see what can be done and figure out how to get there.

a prime example is the NRG they had ads in the past that stated for the discerning model builders and better models through research they also been called the elite in the hobby.
recognizing an elite class sure did not cripple them. They not only survive but are growing so i believe there is something appealing to belong to such groups be it model ships, model engineering, stream engine modeling or whatever.
 
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Roger Pellett said:
I do consider myself as a serious amateur and am happy to share my experience and knowledge with others. Hopefully you can understand why it’s frustrating to spend time researching and answering a question only to be told “oh it doesn’t matter, It’s just a hobby.”
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Roger
No... No... No... I don’t understand, and honestly, I don’t think I ever will. We (most of us) don’t build ship models just because it’s a hobby, or for status, or even always for a goal; we do it because we like it, we want it, and love it. That alone is enough. Don't Ya think?

I fully respect serious dedication and research, and I admire you, or someone shares your hard-earned knowledge with others. This is why SOS is among the top forums, and still exists! But calling it “just a hobby” doesn’t mean dismissing the work; it’s a way to acknowledge that each person brings their own passion, goals, and level of commitment. We’re not in a competition. Some build for history, some for skill, and others for beauty or nostalgia. All are perfectly valid.

So yes, let’s share knowledge. Let’s be serious amateurs. But let’s not lose sight of why we’re here: because we love making ships, because we love our hobby! YAY!!
 
truth be told the journey is much better than the destination for me. I love the challenge of building these model ships, but I don't know where I will be putting my future models. They are literally unsellable. I gave one away to my wife's class and her students loved it.

Where do i put the other 6 that I will be building? How do I decide which ones to get rid of? Is a kit build less valuable than a scratch built one or a kit bashed one?

Well for me, my Constitution build is sold as a kit, but it is extremely valuable to me because of the amount of effort I am putting into it. I don't think it will win any awards but to me this kit build is definitely very valuable.
 
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here is a story

i was a model builder from a very early age, getting in wooden ship models as a teenager i bought my first kit the Mayflower that came in a long yellow box. later i got involved with the Inland Seas Maritime Museum as a volunteer in the archives and library then the model club formed with some of the top model builders in the area. I still remember coming home and telling my wife i was personally invited to something called the Nautical Research Guild conference by none other than the guy who actually builds models for the Smithsonian. Let's go! and we did actually we went as a wood vendor. there was a cocktail party and dinner, we were midwestern young people i had on jeans and T shirt same with my wife dressed very casual, what we saw were men dressed in suits and ties and wives in evening gowns. We were stopped at the door by hotel management and said sorry this is a private conference. Out walked one of the directors and said "they are one of us" WOW we were rubbing elbows with the elite people who edit model magazines, men who build for museums, historians. holy cow we were so out classed it was almost funny. did we shy away? nope i was a member for many years and what i achieved and what i learned was from that elite class of master builders.
some 50 years later that one comment "they are one of us" still rings. it took years and a lot of work

i think this is why you keep trying to sell this as a happy hobby over and over and not realizing your not seeing the whole picture.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
here is a story

i was a model builder from a very early age, getting in wooden ship models as a teenager i bought my first kit the Mayflower that came in a long yellow box. later i got involved with the Inland Seas Maritime Museum as a volunteer in the archives and library then the model club formed with some of the top model builders in the area. I still remember coming home and telling my wife i was personally invited to something called the Nautical Research Guild conference by none other than the guy who actually builds models for the Smithsonian. Let's go! and we did actually we went as a wood vendor. there was a cocktail party and dinner, we were midwestern young people i had on jeans and T shirt same with my wife dressed very casual, what we saw were men dressed in suits and ties and wives in evening gowns. We were stopped at the door by hotel management and said sorry this is a private conference. Out walked one of the directors and said "they are one of us" WOW we were rubbing elbows with the elite people who edit model magazines, men who build for museums, historians. holy cow we were so out classed it was almost funny. did we shy away? nope i was a member for many years and what i achieved and what i learned was from that elite class of master builders.
some 50 years later that one comment "they are one of us" still rings. it took years and a lot of work

i think this is why you keep trying to sell this as a happy hobby over and over and not realizing your not seeing the whole picture.
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leaving a parting note....without reigniting the fire ;)

What did I learn from your story? In short, it’s a nostalgic anecdote with a moral: "If you want to be great, you need to respect the elite and their standards.

Obviously, the story is clearly meaningful to you, and I respect that. :cool: Still, I see ship modeling through a broader lens. For some, it's about being elite, and part of such a club, mastering traditional techniques. For others, it's simply the joy of creating. There's room for both.

I've made my views clear and will leave it at that. No need for further back and forth.
 
We must be approaching closure when I find myself “Liking” two posts supposedly espousing divergent viewpoints. Clearly, a sign that there is, in fact, room for all.
 
As far as I am concerned, I could go on with dozens of posts relating the reasons why I think the way I do... and with no shame I would add.
I have countless experiences, personal anecdotal accounts within model building in general (including some specifics right as a member of this community), other activities such as photography, art, etc... (as I have had many interests subject to the same kind of debate), as well as views on subjects such as dedication, passion, choices and more.
At the same time, I understand that someone with a different or opposing perspective can surely do the same.
But I have no desire to bore people; everything is subject to interpretation anyways.
For some, possibly most, none of it would be relevent; and that is ok too.
Is there an existential crisis that we need more people involved? I find such basic conversation quite stimulating as I am typically ready to hear and respect the other side making the argument.

As for keeping the conversation going around and around, well, sorry ... although some things should remain unsaid, I cannot help it.... the second part of post # 88 just killed it for me.​

Again,
Respectfully and with my best regards.
G.
 
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