Researching the Dutch ship Fortuyn (Fortune) 1614

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didit said:
there was a wreck studied of a ship built in North America by Rene Robert Cavalier La Salle. Here is a wood cut of the ship under construction, looking at the round stern it looks like a Fluit this was built around 1670ish and the Dutch were well established in North America at this time. There is a thesis on this wreck and several plans drawn.
One thing I noticed is the palm tree odd because the ship was built in upper New York the wreck studied was in Lake Huron, Canada best to my knowledge palm trees do not grow in Canada.

HOWEVER the wood cut was published in nouvelle Decouverte d'um tres grand pays situe' dans l'amerique 1697 so that is like almost 30 years after the building so father Hennepin who traveled with La Salle, maybe the good Father confused details from the travels "understandable"

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This is the Griffon, or?

The picture you are showing is made 1697 and called "Construction du Griffon en 1678-1679 sur le bord de la riviere Niagara en Ontario, gravure de Louis Hennepin tire du livre "Nouvelle Decouverte" de 1697.

Building-le-griffon.jpg

At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Griffon you can find this explanation (together with a lot of references):

Le Griffon's pattern closely followed the prevailing type used by explorers to cross the Atlantic Ocean to the New World. The exact size and construction of Le Griffon is not known. The widely referenced antique woodcutting of Le Griffon shows her with 2 masts but many researchers believe she was a 45-ton barque with a single mast with several square sails and 30 to 40 feet (9.1 to 12.2 m) long with a 10-to-15-foot (3.0 to 4.6 m) beam.

Hennepin's first account says she was a vessel of about 45 tons; his second says 60 tons. Because his second account has numerous exaggerations and cases where he credits himself for things that La Salle had done, Hennepin's first account is considered more reliable. In any case, Le Griffon was larger than any other vessel on the lakes at the time, and as far as contemporary reports can confirm, the first named vessel.

Le-griffon.jpg
Father Louis Hennepin's "Nouvelle Decouverte" (Utrecht, 1697)
 
This is the Griffon, or?

the wreck that was studied was more of the "or" what it was never actually identified as the Griffon
 
didit said:
Can you re-post the article a bit smaller some of the info is cut off, some time on the left some time on the right.

it is not the size of the file posted it is because the original book is bigger than the scanner I could rescan the pages in 2 sections.

rather than rescan the pages in pieces and stitch them back together if you have any question about the text just ask and i can look at the original and tell you want is missing
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I can figure out most of the info, so if I have a question I'll sent you a note, Thanks Fred
 
My translator app going to get a work out. [/QUOTE said:
For what it's worth. I've found DeepL-https://www.deepl.com/translator
Does a better job than google translate. Interface is a little clankier, with no resident "translate web page" feature, but the results are worth it. A lot of great information is bubbling up in this thread!
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If you want to build it based on a kit then you should have a look at the site if Kolderstok models. They specialize in 17th century dutch ship modelkits and have a great kit of the Duyfken.
Duyfken is a ship of the type we now in Dutch as jacht. A small type of three masted light sailing ship. You would expect in the early 17th century the vessel used would be a jacht or a fluyt.
Both Duyfken and the Halve Maen (half moon) are jachten. If the ship was a freighter a fluyt would be more probable as she has much more cargo space then a jacht.

See the link below.
http://www.kolderstok-models.com/duyfken.en.html

If you look for scratch build of a ship like this or a fluyt you must have a look at the book of Ad Hoving about the ships of Abel Tasman. He used a fluyt and a jacht to sail around australia and new zeeland to map these in the 1640s. Ab Hoving wrote a book about these ships and reconstructed them incl all drawings neede to build the models.
This book incl drawings is also available in English.
See the link below to the Dutch website of the Publisher. I do have the Dutch version myself as I have the planning to build the fluyt as my next project.
https://verloren.nl/boeken/2086/253/2540/maritiem-en-waterstaat/de-schepen-van-abel-tasman

Hope it helps.
 
@FredV was the Fortuyn you are interested in built in 1613 or mentioned in 1613? Obviously in those days ships weren't built to plans, instead the shipwright received a "Zerter" from the company ordering the ship, a charter in which some key dimensions were determined. In Wendy van Duivenvoorde's book is a complete charter of a 600ton ship from 1603. Also in Witsens work are several charters but these are from ships from the middle of the 17th century. One thing should be certain and that is that the Fortuyn was built shell-first and not frame-first. This will play an important role in designing the ship. Personally I like the idea of the Fortuyn being a yacht and not a Fluyt. A Fluyt was used when a large cargo was to be transported or was to be expected (whaling). A yacht as used for getting around.

Peter
 
You need to get a Copy of "The Ships of Abel Tasman" - full set of plans on CD for two dutch ships from this period - a fluyt and a galleon. Book set available in Dutch, German, English.

The Ships of Abel Tasman | Dé specialist in historische uitgaven

The Ships of Abel Tasman
verloren.nl verloren.nl

Also look at "Het Schip van Willem Barents" only in Dutch, but still a good buy and set of plans.

Het schip van Willem Barents | Dé specialist in historische uitgaven

Het schip van Willem Barents
verloren.nl verloren.nl

Jeff
 
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FredV said:
Background of early Dutch visits to New York area:
  • 1609; Henry Hudson, on board the Halve Maen (Half Moon), discovered the New York area.
  • 1611; St. Pieter, captained by Cornelis Rijsen
  • 1612; Tiger, captained by Adriaen Block and Fortuyn (Fortune), captained by Hendricks
  • 1613; Nachtegael (Nightingale) captained by Volckertsz Messel.
  • 1613; Fortuyn, different ship from the one captained by Christiansen in 1612, this one is captained by Cornelis Jocobsz Mey (sometime listed as May). This is the ship I an interested in.
  • 1614 thru 1621; The area was wide open to trading and many ships were coming and going.
  • 1621; The West India Company was granted a Ten year Chart for exclusive trading.
Additional information about Fortuyn that was Captained by Mey:
  • Fortuyn was one of the ship of the New Netherland Company. Within The New Netherland Company, the sole owners of the Fortuyn were three member of the Company from Hoorn, Netherland Peter Clementssen Brouwer, Jan Clementssen Kies, and Cornelius Volkertssen Viele (My Grandfather 9th remove, hence my interest in this ship)
  • Several references list him as Cornelius Volckertssen or Cornelius Volkertssen Seyelmaker. The family change their last name from Seyelmaker to Viele about this time.
  • He return to New Netherland after 1621 and was a trader and sailor. He gave up sailing when he married in 1638. He started the Viele clan in America

My research so far is trying to identify just the Fortuyn class:
  • Most of my research was the Viele Genealogy Records 1613-1913, compiled by Katherine Knickerbocker, several New York historical Internet sites, and early 1600 models Info. Not much information on Dutch ships of the early 1600’s. Ships names and their captains are about all I can get. The only record of class was a brief mention in the Viele Genealogy, that stated it was a Sloop. Which as far as I can tell about sloops of that time period, was that they were small and single masted. I have many doubt that Cornelius Jocobs Mey would have sailed to New Netherland in a sloop. I thought more along the line of the size of the Hudson’s ship the Half Moon, which was classed as a Yacht about 80 tons, it was a three masted square rigger. The next step up would be the Fluyt, 100-200 tons, a three masted square rigger (e.g. Mayflower enough though she was english she was classified as a Fluyt). All these class were merchant ships and lightly armed. Also looking into the Duyfken, a barque of 110 tons built in 1607.

My current plans:
  • Presently I just finishing some repair to my Scottish Maid.
  • I’m ready to start my build on the HMS Endeavor.
  • After that, I would like to do a Fortuyn build.
    • First decision scratch build or modify a kit (I will most likely be looking for recommendation on this one).
    • The Theme would be around Roman Goddess Fortuna, in the book Historic Ship Model by Wolfram zu Mondfel, page 255, there a drawing on a sail that depicts Fortuna on it. Also there's a lot of statues to use as examples. It would be nice if there was a figurehead, but most likely I will get a chance to try my hand at carving. Probably will not have to do to much decorating, the class of ships I’m looking at from the early 1600 did not have elaborate decorations. Also what classification and size to use, this most likely will be an educated guess Right now I’m looking at something between the Mayflower and the Half Moon, maybe Duyfken. Maybe use one of them as a base kit or ship drawings.
Please weight in if you have info and/or suggestion. I have found very little information for this time period and I could use some help.
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Hallo @FredV
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY
Birthday-Cake
 
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