Rope on each side of the steps on the hull

RogerD said:
Thanks for your kind words..
…. and I just found this photo showing a two rope rig they used for this particular ship (Constitution?). Note the way the lines run through eyebolts but this is very much more recent times. Your decision to use knotted rope/s on the older depiction of your model would add some fun, interesting detail.


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Not quite so sure about belaying pins as a fixing point for the ropes. The last four steps in the photo are not served by a rope ladder. Would one get from the lower to the upper steps without a rope to hold onto standing on a rowing boat? Would a sailor have to go down the steps to fix the ropes or whoever climbs the ladder first would have to fix them himself first before climbing aboard. What about disembarking or untying the ropes once all are aboard or have disembarked.

Addition to my post: I enlarged the photo above and as far as I can tell, the rope is tied to an eyebolt either side of the steps and the way the end of the ropes are served would suggest a permanent fixture. That is for the displayed ship, but may not generally constitute general practice on 18th century ships.
 
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This is an interesting thread you started Luigi. Some good debatable points.

I feel the top end of a manrope/ropes on deck, for those 17th/18th century ships, would be made fast to a secure point. I agree not belaying pins.

Firstly, looking at the fixed treads in the photo I posted if we allow 12” between the top of one fixed tread to the top of the next then the distance, in this example, from the water to the bottom of the manropes is just short of 5 feet. So let’s assume no swell and no sea running. Allow, in those days, a short ass seaman‘s height of 5’ 4”. He stands upright coming alongside, arms up-stretched giving him a reach of say 6 feet. Additionally allow the jolly boat, or whatever, a freeboard of, say, two feet. Yes I measured it against a door :D. So I feel he could reach the lower part of those manropes easily.

The bottom of those manropes looks, to me, like an eye splice around a thimble. Then secured with a shackle to the lower eyebolts. It’s difficult to see. Since this is a later example of an embarkation arrangement then it’s possible it’s particular to that ship and those lines are semi-permanent. If so then there’s no need to secure and release them regularly. My feeling though is that it’s easy enough to send a man down, using a manrope, to release the bottom ends and then haul everything up before proceeding to sea.

I still feel that in those early days Jolly Jack used a single manrope to assist climbing and descending. Seamen like to keep things simple :D

It’ll be interesting to throw this open and get some more feedback from others.
 
RogerD said:
This is an interesting thread you started Luigi. Some good debatable points.

I feel the top end of a manrope/ropes on deck, for those 17th/18th century ships, would be made fast to a secure point. I agree not belaying pins.

Firstly, looking at the fixed treads in the photo I posted if we allow 12” between the top of one fixed tread to the top of the next then the distance, in this example, from the water to the bottom of the manropes is just short of 5 feet. So let’s assume no swell and no sea running. Allow, in those days, a short ass seaman‘s height of 5’ 4”. He stands upright coming alongside, arms up-stretched giving him a reach of say 6 feet. Additionally allow the jolly boat, or whatever, a freeboard of, say, two feet. Yes I measured it against a door :D. So I feel he could reach the lower part of those manropes easily.

The bottom of those manropes looks, to me, like an eye splice around a thimble. Then secured with a shackle to the lower eyebolts. It’s difficult to see. Since this is a later example of an embarkation arrangement then it’s possible it’s particular to that ship and those lines are semi-permanent. If so then there’s no need to secure and release them regularly. My feeling though is that it’s easy enough to send a man down, using a manrope, to release the bottom ends and then haul everything up before proceeding to sea.

I still feel that in those early days Jolly Jack used a single manrope to assist climbing and descending. Seamen like to keep things simple :D

It’ll be interesting to throw this open and get some more feedback from others.
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Hi Roger,

When I posed the question on the subject matter, I didn't envisage the topic generating so much interest and it is good to see so much feed-back.
The question is also how often the ladder would have been used over the life of the ship?

Trevor
 
LuigiSoft said:
Hi Roger,

When I posed the question on the subject matter, I didn't envisage the topic generating so much interest and it is good to see so much feed-back.
The question is also how often the ladder would have been used over the life of the ship?

Trevor
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Hi Trevor, my apologies I called you Luigi. Yes, it’s a great topic.

The use of any ship side embarkation arrangement is dependent on the ship’s trade, type of vessel, draught, time at anchor, in port, predominance of personnel movements and so on, much as it is nowadays.
 
Thanks Frank 48. That helps a lot. Jeez, though if I ask the next question, I'll be adding to my work! What the heck. I'd guess that a "man overboard" rope (that I'd never thought of until you mentioned it), would be at reasonable intervals. I'd not thought about it but if it was me, I'd see little point in a pair in the bow. I suppose I might have them for when the ship was dead in the water and some idiot sailor had fallen off the bowsprit. 2 pairs on the main deck and 1 pair each on any higher stern decks. I'm thinking galleon here, 90 feet or so front to stern of the hull.

I guess that if I use common sense, it'll be at least more realistic, since these were never supplied with my original kit. Nobody can tell me exactly how many San francisco actually used.
 
RogerD said:
Hi Trevor, my apologies I called you Luigi. Yes, it’s a great topic.

The use of any ship side embarkation arrangement is dependent on the ship’s trade, type of vessel, draught, time at anchor, in port, predominance of personnel movements and so on, much as it is nowadays.
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Roger,
No apologies necessary. Ater all, that is the name I chose when I registered on this site!
Luigi stems from my sojourn in Northern Italy in the 1980s. A great time there, a marvellous country full of culture and very friendly, helpful people!

Trevor
 
LuigiSoft, any question here seems to make for lots of answers!

This one got my attention because I wasn't happy with what was suppied on my kit. You simply asked what I already had on my mind, so I joined in. I can't answer how much the ladder was used over the other ropes for "man overboard".

It seems to me that the ladders would be used for 'normal' boarding from rowing boats. Say an official had to board. If sailors went in a rowing boat to fix a rudder... that sort of thing. Even sailors diving into warm seas for a swim.

The other ropes could be used and would be, but I'd think they were mainly for emergencies. Let's face it, you have a ladder on the starboard side and your sailor falls off the bowsprit on the port side... the ladder is not much use to him!

Hi in Sweden, btw. I have a Finnish friend and she doesn't like Swedes too much: I think that's historical, Russia and whatever. I've worked with a Swedish game mod maker and he didn't share that opinion of the Finns. Me? I take people as I find them. My only real impression of Swedish people is one who I loved to work with, somebody who shares my love of model-making and Abba! Not much to go on, but Sweden is still fine by me!
 
CumbrianLad said:
Thanks Frank 48. That helps a lot. Jeez, though if I ask the next question, I'll be adding to my work! What the heck. I'd guess that a "man overboard" rope (that I'd never thought of until you mentioned it), would be at reasonable intervals. I'd not thought about it but if it was me, I'd see little point in a pair in the bow. I suppose I might have them for when the ship was dead in the water and some idiot sailor had fallen off the bowsprit. 2 pairs on the main deck and 1 pair each on any higher stern decks. I'm thinking galleon here, 90 feet or so front to stern of the hull.

I guess that if I use common sense, it'll be at least more realistic, since these were never supplied with my original kit. Nobody can tell me exactly how many San francisco actually used.
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Good evening, here is the official .sm definition. [to pass]. In the marina: small cable, flexible and easy to handle; cable stretched between two points of the ship, on post poles, etc., as a bodyguard; line that connects the ends of the rods of the hand winches
 
CumbrianLad said:
LuigiSoft, any question here seems to make for lots of answers!

This one got my attention because I wasn't happy with what was suppied on my kit. You simply asked what I already had on my mind, so I joined in. I can't answer how much the ladder was used over the other ropes for "man overboard".

It seems to me that the ladders would be used for 'normal' boarding from rowing boats. Say an official had to board. If sailors went in a rowing boat to fix a rudder... that sort of thing. Even sailors diving into warm seas for a swim.

The other ropes could be used and would be, but I'd think they were mainly for emergencies. Let's face it, you have a ladder on the starboard side and your sailor falls off the bowsprit on the port side... the ladder is not much use to him!

Hi in Sweden, btw. I have a Finnish friend and she doesn't like Swedes too much: I think that's historical, Russia and whatever. I've worked with a Swedish game mod maker and he didn't share that opinion of the Finns. Me? I take people as I find them. My only real impression of Swedish people is one who I loved to work with, somebody who shares my love of model-making and Abba! Not much to go on, but Sweden is still fine by me!
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CumbrianLad said:
LuigiSoft, any question here seems to make for lots of answers!

This one got my attention because I wasn't happy with what was suppied on my kit. You simply asked what I already had on my mind, so I joined in. I can't answer how much the ladder was used over the other ropes for "man overboard".

It seems to me that the ladders would be used for 'normal' boarding from rowing boats. Say an official had to board. If sailors went in a rowing boat to fix a rudder... that sort of thing. Even sailors diving into warm seas for a swim.

The other ropes could be used and would be, but I'd think they were mainly for emergencies. Let's face it, you have a ladder on the starboard side and your sailor falls off the bowsprit on the port side... the ladder is not much use to him!

Hi in Sweden, btw. I have a Finnish friend and she doesn't like Swedes too much: I think that's historical, Russia and whatever. I've worked with a Swedish game mod maker and he didn't share that opinion of the Finns. Me? I take people as I find them. My only real impression of Swedish people is one who I loved to work with, somebody who shares my love of model-making and Abba! Not much to go on, but Sweden is still fine by me!
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A quirk of this site is that it shows the flag of the country where the member is currently located, irrespective of where he / she normally lives.
We are currently in Sweden on holiday and that is the reason why the Swedish flag comes up on my avitar! When we return to Germany, the German flag will reappear, analogous to the situation when we visit my sister in Scotland. I asked the adminstrators why this is and Jimsky replied by explaining that the site registers the actual IP address where the site is called up from.
We have very good Swedish friends here, although the Swedes generally tend to be withdrawn. Their English is excellent across the board, which is a godsend for us as our Swedish is not brilliant, to say the least.
 
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I have a little more information about the ship side ladders and manropes. It’s interesting how terminology varies according to different sources.

An 1867 reference gives us the term “entering-ladders” for the ship side ladders we are discussing. There were two types. One at the ship’s side for use in harbour and fair weather, this would be the fixed wooden treads. The other made of ropes with wooden staves and hung from the gallery. This latter ladder being called a “stern-ladder”. I see this as very similar to what we now call the “Jacob’s ladder”. The “stern-ladder” was used when higher seas were running and there was possibility of damage to a boat alongside.

The ropes used to assist climbing the ship’s side were called “entering-ropes” or “side-ropes”. As many as three were used hung on the left, right or middle of the steps. The upper end of the “entering-rope/s” passed through an eye in an iron stanchion at the gangway.

The ship side fixed treads were called “side-steps”. These were wooden and bolted to the ships side. In smaller vessels they used a rope ladder.

Three deckers used an entering-port in the ship’s side. Access was using a similar arrangement of fixed steps or a rope ladder. In addition a railed embarkation ladder was sometimes used secured by iron braces.

I found an image of a painting showing an embarkation ladder at the ship’s side. Remarkably similar to modern practices where an embarkation ladder is also used in combination with a pilot ladder, if necessary.

C63475DD-AFAA-44A1-B463-776D9BDA9E2E.jpeg

Another painting shows a ship’s “side-steps”. What I found interesting was the fixed “runners” down each side of the ladder. Obviously to prevent damage to the steps. It’s hard to see but it looks like a rope is hung down the middle of the steps.

DD8D2D21-D521-41F9-AB98-AF9385A6473E.jpeg
 
Hi Roger,
Many thanks for your valuable input in this thread, and of course this thank you is extended to all who contributed to the thread, making it an interesting topic.
I believe it makes sense to leave off the ropes at the ladder on a model, but each to their own. I certainly will be adding the eye bolts to my model, where the ropes would have been tied.

Best regards,
Trevor
 
LuigiSoft said:
Hi Roger,
Many thanks for your valuable input in this thread, and of course this thank you is extended to all who contributed to the thread, making it an interesting topic.
I believe it makes sense to leave off the ropes at the ladder on a model, but each to their own. I certainly will be adding the eye bolts to my model, where the ropes would have been tied.

Best regards,
Trevor
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It's been my pleasure to provide some input Trevor. I enjoy the research as much as modelling.
 
LuigiSoft said:
Hi to all,

I have seen on a model of the Endeavour a rope attached to either side of the steps mounted on the port and starboard side of the hull.
Is this authentic, as I haven't seen this in specific books on period ships, or is the modeller in question expressing his artistic freedom?
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Hallo @LuigiSoft
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY
Birthday-Cake
 
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