Sovereign of the Seas - Sergal 1:78 (with hopefully many added details)

Kurt,
Noted - yes, I do plan on painting/staining all outer upper timbers in black. As I continue I will also add to as much historical accuracy as I am capable of - based on data that are available. First attempt.
Wanted to offset the bowsprit mast, as it was in this ship. The very forward located foremast did not allow for the traditional centering of bowsprit mast. This should work – I hope.
PS: Last image - Brilliant example built by Mr. Henry Culver and Mr. Paul Chalfin between 1918 and 1920
Thanks for the likes, dropping by and helpful comments.


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Now that's what I'm talking about! Think outside the box and MAKE it work. Changes like that are noticeable improvements. Great job reinforcing the bowsprit mount. There's quite a debate whether the bowsprit, when mounted off centerline, angled such that the forward tip was at centerline, or whether the bowsprit was parallel to the keel. Something to research! I'll be starting HMS SotS next year, so I'd like to know why you went with the angled method, other than it LOOKS much better and seems to make sense. John McKay disagrees, from what I've seen in his book.
 
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Uwe,

Appreciate your kind comment. YES the W. Rotter is a jewel example indeed. I have 14 jpgs, but not the ones from your link thanks!! Here are a few more examples of his work of this ship. Thanks for posting the link
PS: I will try to add the stair details that he included at the large stern lantern :)


Rotter SOS 65 copy.jpglogos + open door50 copy.jpgstern lantern ladder12a copy.jpg
 
Hi oldflyer

On my website schifferlbauer. com you find a lot of pictures of sailing ship models too the Sovereign you need.

The link https://www.schifferlbauer.com/seite40.html guide you directly to the model of Wolfgang Rotters Sovereign.
You can click on more then 50 picture of the model. With the arrows down you can change the pages for and aft
and with a click on any picture you can see it in big size. The only problem it is in German language.
Also in the blog Carving (schifferlbauer) A little bit carving and the model of the Sovereign of the seas.

Kind regards
Willi (schifferlbauer)
 
Will: Thanks for your link. These images will be very useful as I try to add extra details. That is certainly a stunning Sovereign!!
PS: German not an issue - I use Google Translate when I visit sites to which I don't understand the language.
 
First I want to share For any of you planning on this kit – an easy “for me” mistake – I was not paying much attention when placing the number 4 & 5 hull frames over the current kit provided outline sheet. Both looked identical, so just flopped both of them onto place on the sheet, then numbered the ply pieces.
Well, it turns out that number #5 is 2.5mm (on each side larger) than #4 otherwise identical looking– makes sense Now!

When I hammered all of them into their slots, I reversed 4 & 5. Now wanting to install the lower gundeck templates – an “unnatural” curve caused issues. Images included below. So FYI

Moving a bit forward - Installed starboard lower gun deck. Added trim pieces as well. Almost finished the port side – next will need to drill dummy cannon holes and add remaining dummy carriages.

Thanks for you kind visits…..


2.jpg3.jpeg4.jpeg5.jpeg6.jpg7a.jpg8.jpg8b.jpg9a.jpeg10.jpeg
 
Will: Thanks for your link. These images will be very useful as I try to add extra details. That is certainly a stunning Sovereign!!
PS: German not an issue - I use Google Translate when I visit sites to which I don't understand the language.
Fine that you can use my link and it help you to build a well model of that ship.
Regards
Willi (schifferlbauer)
 
Kurt,
Regarding the earliest known example that you are interested in building, you would have to locate a very rare Amati kit that is no longer available in order to build a representative example IMO. Unless your skill set allows you to scratch build – I’ll never get to that level of skill but so enjoy following build by these masters of this hobby.

That said, the Amati (1/64th) does still have available its decorative pieces, and plans at some retail providers. But the kit is “history”. Too bad it certainly looked to be excellent. Ironically enough the Amati stern illustration does not include a black hull to the waterline – odd? But the kit’s metal bits are certainly representative of the ship's early days.

The decorative bits in the Sergal kit are, arguably, based on a later example of the ship? And – who knows – what later paint scheme was part of that “resurrection”. I appreciate your interest in building an early example, especially with the paint schemes from the Pett painting. I personally have no plans to paint the hull black to the waterline, nor the lower hull in white...

PS: had the Amati decorative bits been of the same scale as Sergal’s I would have blended everything together trying to put together an early example…

Thanks for your continued notations.

Regards,

amati plan 3 copy.jpgamati-models-1831-sovereign-of-the-seas-decorations-set-for-naval-modelling (1).jpgamati-models-1831-sovereign-of-the-seas-decorations-set-for-naval-modelling.jpg
 
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Kurt,
Regarding the earliest known example that you are interested in building, you would have to locate a very rare Amati kit that is no longer available in order to build a representative example IMO. Unless your skill set allows you to scratch build – I’ll never get to that level of skill but so enjoy following build by these masters of this hobby.

That said, the Amati (1/64th) does still have available its decorative pieces, and plans at some retail providers. But the kit is “history”. Too bad it certainly looked to be excellent. Ironically enough the Amati stern illustration does not include a black hull to the waterline – odd? But the kit’s metal bits are certainly representative of the ship's early days.

The decorative bits in the Sergal kit are, arguably, based on a later example of the ship? And – who knows – what later paint scheme was part of that “resurrection”. I appreciate your interest in building an early example, especially with the paint schemes from the Pett painting. I personally have no plans to paint the hull black to the waterline, nor the lower hull in white...

PS: had the Amati decorative bits been of the same scale as Sergal’s I would have blended everything together trying to put together an early example…

Thanks for your continued notations.

Regards,

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I have both the Amati blueprints and the Amati decorations set, and was planning to bash the DeAgostini kit using the Amati fittings. Thank you Oldflyer! Looks like I have the right parts after all.
 
Kurt,
That is perfect indeed - should be a great project!


I had also looked at DeAgostini as a possible (one time) purchase. The one I really searched for was an old Amati kit no luck, but yes Amati still sells the plans, but not the decorative bits.
The Deagostini is a 1/84th - I thought that the Amati fittings are 1/64th?. Would those scale differences still work out?

PS: I so much more like the Amati example - a shame that it went out of production. It would have been my very first choice.

OH - do your Amati plans also include complete rigging sheets? from what I understand I need to toss the Sergal rigging sheets. I may buy the Amati plan sheets.

Regards,
 
Kurt,
That is perfect indeed - should be a great project!


I had also looked at DeAgostini as a possible (one time) purchase. The one I really searched for was an old Amati kit no luck, but yes Amati still sells the plans, but not the decorative bits.
The Deagostini is a 1/84th - I thought that the Amati fittings are 1/64th?. Would those scale differences still work out?

PS: I so much more like the Amati example - a shame that it went out of production. It would have been my very first choice.

OH - do your Amati plans also include complete rigging sheets? from what I understand I need to toss the Sergal rigging sheets. I may buy the Amati plan sheets.

Regards,
I am not sure if the Amati fittings will work, being about 20% larger according the scale. What's confusing is the overall length of the Amati ship is 110cm, and the stated length of the DeAgostini model is 43.3" or 109.98cm, which is scary close. So, is the DeAgostini model actually 1/64? It is advertised as 1/84 scale. When I open the DeAgostini packages and inspect the frame and keel parts, I'll have to compare them to the Amati plans and see if the two ships are close in scale.

Many of the decorations for both Amati and DeAgostini do not match those of the Peter Pett painting on the stern, or the Payne depictions on the sides of the ship. Many decorations may have to be scratch built in order to be accurate to those sources. Some of the Deagostini decorations will be used in lieu of the Amati ones when choosing the more correct decoration, and vice versa.

The Amati plans do have rigging sheets, one drawing for standing rigging and one for running rigging. However, there is no belaying plan! The drawings will show lines belayed to the after forecastle rail, for example, but not the specific transverse location on that rail, and no belaying pin location for the few pin rails that are shown in the plans. Sergal rigging sheets or other sources are required. On the La Couronne build, I mixed rigging sources, Corel and Vincenzo Lusci's and that can result in a lot of conflicts you have to puzzle out. Lusci did not have rails abaft the foremast, while Corel did, resulting in belaying areas on the forecastle railings that went unused for the Lusci design. Lusci's belaying plan showed all lines for sail running rigging, Corel's plan did not include fitting of sails and much of the sail rigging was omitted. Suffice to say, it can be a mess. You have to compare the run of each line from two sets of plans, determine if there are conflicts, and choose which plan to use for about half of the lines.

Please excuse me for going off topic, when we should be discussing how to accurize the Sergal (Mantua) ship model, which appears based on the 1650 renovation of the ship, not the design of the ship as of its launching in 1637, which is what I am striving for. Below is a belaying plan I came across for the HMS Royal Sovereign of 1651. You might want to compare this to the Sergal belaying plan and see which you like better for many lines, then look at John McKay's book and see where he ties lines off if you truly want to be confused. ;)

It just occurred to me that on my early version of SotS, according to this belaying plan, there may have been a bonaventure mast. Perhaps there exist other sources that support its existence.

Sovereign-JG3.png
 
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Kurt,
That is perfect indeed - should be a great project!


I had also looked at DeAgostini as a possible (one time) purchase. The one I really searched for was an old Amati kit no luck, but yes Amati still sells the plans, but not the decorative bits.
The Deagostini is a 1/84th - I thought that the Amati fittings are 1/64th?. Would those scale differences still work out?

PS: I so much more like the Amati example - a shame that it went out of production. It would have been my very first choice.

OH - do your Amati plans also include complete rigging sheets? from what I understand I need to toss the Sergal rigging sheets. I may buy the Amati plan sheets.

Regards,
The Amati decorations are here: Amati Decorations Set SotS

Hopefully they have one in left in stock if anyone is looking for the set. They are VERY nice castings, the most detailed I have yet seen.
 
I'm by no means an expert on this ship, but i also have the amati fittings and the amati plans

My question is, is the amati kit really an older version of the ship or.. As I was thinking, simply a bad kit made to use pre existing fittings as possible?

Did the ship had at any point straight bullwarks like the ones in amati plans?

Did the ship hand round columns on the railings like the amati plans?
 
I'm by no means an expert on this ship, but i also have the amati fittings and the amati plans

My question is, is the amati kit really an older version of the ship or.. As I was thinking, simply a bad kit made to use pre existing fittings as possible?

Did the ship had at any point straight bullwarks like the ones in amati plans?

Did the ship hand round columns on the railings like the amati plans?
Many of the features on the Amati ship are not correct by our best knowledge but it has more detailed castings. Some of the features require some changes, like the shape of the stern, but it's closer that other models. Many of the decorations are simply different that the carved icons of a more reliable source, the Payne drawings. The bulwarks on Amati's ship are flat, and not correct. The Sergal ones are much more correct. I believe John McKay (Sovereign of the Seas 1637) has the bulkheads correct, but his belfry is missing and he added an officers companionway (ladder) on the upper deck that seems unnecessary, the cover of which does not show up in any depiction of the ship elsewhere. The transom is flat, which is another assumption of his, and it has a shape that would not allow the rudder to be effective. I think our best bet for the early ship version, for beginners not wanting to take on scratch building yet, or make all the carvings, is to take the frame structure of either the Amati or DeAgostini kits, modify the shape of the stern to match the Lely Painting of Peter Pett, use the features of the Payne engraving for the hull features like the bulkheads, and try to put together a rigging and belaying plan by borrowing plans from Sergal, John McKay and squeeze as much rigging line arrangements from the Payne engraving (see below). For castings used to portray the carvings, no set is even half correct it seems. You have to make the carvings like Wolfgang Rotter and Doris Obručová did to get them close, which is disappointing. I am struggling with how to solve the decoration carvings problem within my skill set and amount of patience. You have to choose for yourself what features you think come from reliable sources, or are at least choices based on good judgement when there is no information. There are very few shortcuts trying to make a reasonably accurate model of HMS Sovereign of the Seas.

Payne RIgging Diagram.jpgSoS - Payne engraving cca 1640_.jpg
 
I apologize for the constant hijacking of the build log for this discussion

A few more points, the vertical decorations as per amati instructions are simply a piece of wood with a groove, accurate for any version of the ship or amati cutting corners?IMG_20201021_010513.jpg

What about the cannons, especially the carriages, which version is more accurate?
 
I apologize for the constant hijacking of the build log for this discussion

A few more points, the vertical decorations as per amati instructions are simply a piece of wood with a groove, accurate for any version of the ship or amati cutting corners?View attachment 186650

What about the cannons, especially the carriages, which version is more accurate?
Regarding the trim between the decorations, the Amati version is a simplification and not accurate by historic sources, which vary greatly. The trim should look like one of these. Take your pick... As far as the cannons go, the Amati ones are nice. I haven't seen the Sergal ones. The DeAgostini culverins with two wheels and skid on the rear are probably not correct. The barrel should look like the one below. John Browne made the guns for SotS. They are slender and decorated, but simply. The carriage design is unknown, but probably a four wheeled truck similar to what's found in most kits today.

1603244728604.png

Trim viewed at oblique angle in Lely's painting of Peter Pett
1603243682352.png

Modern artist's interpretation:
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Wolfgang Rotter's famous scratch build, probably the best interpretation based off of the Pete Pett Painting decor
1603243948686.png

Scratch Build by Doris Obručová
1603244182931.png
 
Kurt:
That image for the pin locations is great – thanks!

Also I was very tempted to order the Amati decorative set from Spain – but another $350 USD would add to what I have already spent. I also will only use blocks and ropes purchased from a great vendor whom I have traded with in the past. And purchased a lot of timber from Cornwall in the UK (great folks)

So all in all will just work with the Sergal bits. That said the temptation is still there especially for the much more correct Amati five stern lanterns and their mounting bases, along with excellent looking castings. Kurt, your level of research and knowledge regarding the SoS is indeed impressive !! You will certainly create a very excellent example. Your nautical expertise is Thumbsup

Shelk;
You are by no mean hijacking, but in fact really helpful for my learning curve. So appreciate your input

Re Cannons; the Sergal issued examples are specific to this kit, and not from a generic parts bin – that is nice – as to accuracy certainly nothing like the image that Kirt posted.

The Doris Obručová example is stunning. In fact, ALL of her work is beyond comparison – especially given that her art is with card stock. I have followed her work for a long time. The intricate decorative work she creates is also superlative...

Here is a link to her SoS build – If you are not familiar with this artist you will be amazed

http://www.papirove-modely.cz/nahledy/2/2996

This site has a lot of interesting information about the SoS as well as much criticism of the Sergal version (Use Google Translate if needed)

https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=183&t=46754

Thanks for all of your kind, and helpful postings – this thread is very open to any ideas thoughts and so on….

Regards,
 
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