The Dutch 72-gun ship ca. 1690 – the apogee of Dutch ship design of the Classical Age

[-Waldemar-]

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National Archives / Nationaal Archief

4.MST Inventaris van de bouwtekeningen van schepen van de Nederlandse Marine, 1683-1996

Inventory number
76 Grootspant en dwarsdoorsneden scheepsconstructie.

Filename
NL-HaNA_4.MST_76

Canonical URL

| Nationaal Archief

www.nationaalarchief.nl

Rights
CC0

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[Ab Hoving]

Great!

 

[-Waldemar-]

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FANTASTIC STUFF VERY INFORMATIVE, OH PLEASE MORE THE HOBBY NEEDS THIS. HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT MY SUGESTION. KEEP IT UP. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE YOU AND YOURS. DON

Thank you very much, Don. However, this is not at all just about the needs of hobbyists. As a matter of fact, this very Dutch plan and the conclusions drawn from its analysis, simply ruin the existing perception of the design and shipbuilding methods of the Witsen and van Yk era, presented to the general public in 'official' modern studies, including by the academic community. For this reason, I do not at all expect a warm welcome for this material from this side. Life...

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[Ab Hoving]

I think there are ways to present the new views to interested people, Waldemar, trying to ignore the loudmouths that visited us in the recent past. We can have a conversation about the options. I'll mail you.

 

[Heinrich]

this very Dutch plan and the conclusions drawn from its analysis, simply ruin the existing perception of the design and shipbuilding methods of the Witsen and van Yk era,

This is what I have been saying all along and in this case your findings are even more profound as they are era-relevant. Now imagine my frustration when Witsen van Yk's theories are being applied to ships that precede their era by as much as 100 years.

 

[-Waldemar-]

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This is what I have been saying all along and in this case your findings are even more profound as they are era-relevant. Now imagine my frustration when Witsen van Yk's theories are being applied to ships that precede their era by as much as 100 years.

All in all, I share your attitude, Heinrich, because it is for this period that things are particularly obscured. In such circumstances, we naturally turn to methods of interpolation and extrapolation, but of course without any guarantee of true results. There is simply a desperate lack of source material for the north of the continent in this early period. Or perhaps what is already available needs to be analysed even more closely...

 

[Heinrich]

Or perhaps what is already available needs to be analysed even more closely...

I think herein lies a very important clue - at least it paid me dividends in my research as to the identity of Barentsz's ship by not only reading different translations of De Veer's diary but also the different editions. Often, I would discover more in the footnotes than what the actual journal/s revealed.

 

[donfarr]

JUST MY 2 CENTS FORGET THE NAY SAYERS STATE YOUR DISCOVERIE, REMEM BER FOR CENTURIES EVEN LATELY THE TOOLS OF RESEARCH ARE NEW YOU ARE USING IT WELL CONTINUE YOU HAVE MANY, MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE WITH YOU SOME OF THE BEST IN THIS FIELD. I PERSONALLY LOVE TO KNOW THE HISTORY OF WHAT I MODEL IT MAKES IT SO MUCH MORE INTERESTING AND SUPRISINGLY THOSE WHO VIEW MY BUILDS REALLY LIKE IT WHEN I EXPLAIN AS BEST I CAN . PLEASE CONTINUE WITH YOUR AMAZING WORK BTW HAPPY EASTER IN CHRIST. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON

 

[-Waldemar-]

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JUST MY 2 CENTS FORGET THE NAY SAYERS STATE YOUR DISCOVERIE, REMEM BER FOR CENTURIES EVEN LATELY THE TOOLS OF RESEARCH ARE NEW YOU ARE USING IT WELL CONTINUE YOU HAVE MANY, MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE WITH YOU SOME OF THE BEST IN THIS FIELD. I PERSONALLY LOVE TO KNOW THE HISTORY OF WHAT I MODEL IT MAKES IT SO MUCH MORE INTERESTING AND SUPRISINGLY THOSE WHO VIEW MY BUILDS REALLY LIKE IT WHEN I EXPLAIN AS BEST I CAN . PLEASE CONTINUE WITH YOUR AMAZING WORK BTW HAPPY EASTER IN CHRIST. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON

Thank you very much, Don. Your two cents are always appreciated. Your recent suggestion in private correspondence has prompted me to look again at some very attractive material from the Iberian Peninsula from the period I like best. However, I don't yet know whether these preliminary glimpses will translate (quickly) into any concrete presentation. For various reasons, not least because it will require a lot of preparation and work. We shall see...

In general, the number of cases from this early period suitable for such analyses has already drastically decreased. I have a few more ideas, but it doesn't help when someone refuses to make the data available, also if they have previously promised to do so publicly.

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[-Waldemar-]

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Current progress in research on ancient design methods allows for an update of this presentation as well, and specifically regarding the final phase of the ship's design, i.e., the method of forming the shapes of the frames. While the solution presented so far, using circular arcs, does indeed approximate their contours as shown in the original plan quite well, however, on a full scale, during the actual construction of ships, the correct conical curves would have been used (incidentally, it seems that similar drafting simplifications when drawing up more or less illustrative plans on paper, and consisting in replacing conical curves with circular arcs, were quite common at the time).

In general, it can be said that this design variant is somewhat different from the one used in the design of the frigate Wageningen 1723 (see thread Dutch frigate »Wageningen« 1723 — a couple of decades ahead of Chapman… | Ships of Scale), because unlike the latter, here the auxiliary design line “quasi scheerstrook” does not run parallel to the “scheerstrook” line on the side projection, but is of a resultant nature, and more precisely, it is automatically determined on the basis of the course of the “vlak” line and the “boeisel” line, which applies to all convex frames (i.e. in the middle part of the hull). Besides, for all convex frames (in the middle part of the hull), the final contours of the frames do not pass through the “vlak” and “boeisel” lines, since both of these lines are used only to determine the arms of both parabolas making the outline of the frames.

The diagram below shows side and top projections of the ship's hull, which are actually the same as those shown above in posts #7 and #10, and are only supplemented by two design lines: the “boeisel” line (found on the original plan) and the reconstructed auxiliary “quasi scheerstrook” line (below the actual “scheerstrook” line in the same blue color), which is useful for generating the parabolic contours of the concave frames (i.e. at both extremities of the hull). However, it seems that this latter line, in this particular design variant, did not even need to be drawn by more experienced designers.

As for the “boeisel” line, on the side projection it is uniformly at a height of 1/3 between the ‘vlak’ line and the “scheerstrook” line. On the top projection, the further the “boeisel” line moves away from the ‘scheerstrook’ line, and at the same time approaches the “vlak” line, the sharper the hull shapes become.

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[-Waldemar-]

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Tracing the frames

The tracing of frames is somewhat different for convex frames in the middle of the hull and for concave frames at the extremities of the hull.

For the former, the procedure is as follows (in the diagram, using frame #4 as an example):

– draw a diagonal individually for each frame, from the ‘vlak’ level to the ‘scherstrook’ level (see diagram),
– connect ‘vlak’ point “A” with ‘boeisel’ point “B”; the intersection of line AB with the diagonal yields point “C”, where both parabolas, lower and upper, meet,
– points “C” and “D” are connected by the upper parabolic curve, and point “C” is connected to the keel by the lower parabolic curve; in the absence of intermediate points (as in this case), the same rho parameter can be used to determine the curvature of all conical curves in a single longitudinal strip.

For concave frames at the extremes of the hull, i.e. when the extension of line AB passes to the other side of the hull above the keel, the procedure is different:

– for the example frame #1, find a point “F” which, when connected to the keel, will ensure the desired sharpness of the hull at this spot; the further procedure is as described above, with the difference that point “F” replaces point “A” and the lower parabola passes through point “A”;
– for concave frames in the stern section of the ship, it is most convenient and reliable to use the predefined auxiliary ‘quasi scheestrook’ line; in this case, first connect points “B” and “E”, then follow the procedure as above, with the lower parabola passing through point “A”.

Thank you,
Waldemar Gurgul

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[Jwallkc]

Waldemar... Are you a naval engineer /architect? I am amazed by your "dissections"

 

[-Waldemar-]

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Waldemar... Are you a naval engineer /architect? I am amazed by your "dissections"

Hmm , I almost became a naval architect (I actually did start studying this subject at university, but ultimately ended up graduating as a lawyer ).

Nevertheless, if I had become a naval architect, I would probably never have learnt about ancient design techniques, because they are not taught at any university, if only because they have not yet been (properly) identified, and later, due to work commitments, there is no time for them for such arduous historical research.

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