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Getting started with keel up scratch building

  • Thread starter Thread starter MOG
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MOG

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Hi all I have part of the site several years now and have some experience building mainly kit bashing my projects, however they all started from kit. I think its time to try scratch building from the keel up. I would like to call on the experience here for any start-up tips, advice, or ideas.

Mike
 
kit building and kit bashing is a great way to hone you modeling skills but kits vs scratch are totally different methods. The require different tools, working with plans and figuring out how to actually build the mode.

as a first time project i would not start with anything big like a first rate ship, start small with something you can finish in a reasonable amount of time.
pre planning the model are you thinking plank on bulkhead or plank on frame?

If your doing plank on frame don't get into anything complicated. The swan practicum is great and very detailed, but it is a complex build. Greg Herbert had built a couple Harold Hahn ship before he jumped into building the swan

Harols Hahn ships are designed with a first time builder in mind, the stylized framing is simplified, and the structure is built in a jig.
 
Thanks Dave , I have a lot of experience with plank on bulkhead, but would like to try plank on fame, you said different tools ?? I have a pretty well fitted out workshop for small and large projects , I was thinking of a sloop or speed boat for my first attempt, any Ideas to look at with a Hahn ship build ?
Mike
 
Mike
Seriously consider Dave's advice. It is close to the path I took starting nearly fifty years ago and I have no regrets. My first two scratch builds were POB, then Hahn style for one model, then fully framed. Even today I am not locked into only one method and I still find use for all three depending on the project. Tools are important, and one of the most important tools is your collection of books. Goodwin, Lavery, Lees are good examples if you are looking to be build an accurate rendition. There are more, depending on what you wish to build. Of as much importance is the experience here at SoS. If you ask questions or just want to confirm some small point, let the membership know that you are looking for comment or help. There are full sets of contemporary plans and in some cases original contracts with scantlings that could help in choosing which vessel to build. Do you have any thoughts on a particular ship?
Allan
 
Guys anyone who has ever looked at my build logs here knows I always seek the support and experience of the group. So following the advise your right scratch building is a whole new ball game and I should approach it that way. POB makes the most sense, a particular ship ? something simple and not overly complicated plans. New learning process, so much trial and error and mistakes will be a factor. So I'm open to suggestions for a good starting project. Again your all right a new challenge can be fun, its why we build
 
When talking tools builders jumping into scratch building thinking ok i am all set i have my little 4 inch table saw, my Dremel tool, a ton of hand tools. my little table top thickness sander. When it comes time to cut wood you realize these little hobby tools are not going to cut it when you have to mill down lumber into modeling size. scale dimensional lumber is available if you do not have the heavy tools. a L48 scale frigate requires 220 liners feet of framing stock.
There are 2 main parts to scratch building once you have a set of plans the first is milling down the scale wood into dimensional lumber that is bringing down to size then after parts are cut you dress the wood or finish it to its final shape and size.

Now comes the build you have to keep the hull true to the baseline as well as in all directions. A POF hull has to be built either in a jig or use spacers between the frame during construction. you could go free form but to me that is like jumping without a safety net. Better safe than sorry.
 
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Dave what size milling machine and thickness sander are talking about ?
 
I took the plunge into scratch building when SOS started the group build for Le Rochefort. (https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/forums/a-n-c-r-e-le-rochefort-group-build.361/) I too thought I had plenty of kit building experience as well as extensive experience as a woodworker (furniture, boxes, clocks etc). Over the course of the last couple of years I have added several tools to the inventory. A Proxxon mini mill HF-70, a larger Proxxon mill FF-230, multiple rotary tools and a mini table saw that’s ok not very accurate.(boy I wish the Byrnes Jim Saw was still available).
Come join us on Le Rochefort you’ll learn boat loads!
 
Dave what size milling machine and thickness sander are talking about ?

here at the Lumber yard i use a Rycon with a 3 tooth 3/4 wide resaw blade

14” Bandsaw #10-326 is RIKON’s newest model with many Patented features that professionals will enjoy – including spring-loaded tool-less blade quides, quick-adjust fence system and quick-lock trunnion table

angling system, plus, a quick release blade tension lever, large adjustment handles, hinged safety blade guard with sight window, high work table height, and storage cabinet base. Its dual voltage, 1-3/4HP motor provides ample power for most every work encountered. Designed with two speed options – just change the drive belt on the pulleys to change from fast to a slower blade speed. Includes 6” tall rip fence with re-saw bar. Wired for use with 3-wire 120V receptacles.

10-326-main-1-scaled.jpg


for sanding i use a supermax double drum machine with 2hp motor.

Flatness: Precision-flattened steel conveyor bed reinforced with four steel cross sections for no “flex” in conveyor, in flatness to less than. 010″ across the width of the sander
Abrasive conveyor belt offers the best grip for raw wood, giving you the ability to accommodate stock that is much shorter or thinner
Patented abrasive attachment system effectively tensions the abrasive wraps, preventing loose abrasive and overlap
Easiest access to abrasive fastening system of any drum sander! Machine Design includes additional space around abrasive, eliminating the need for special tools.
Self-cooling drum prevents overheating and extends abrasive life
Drum ball bearing are sealed and permanently lubricated
Cast stand, zinc-plate steel bed, center-less ground column tubes
Intellistand technology: automatically adjusts conveyor speed based on load
Sanding capacity: Maximum Width (in): 25, 37, 50, minimum length (in): 3-1/2, maximum thickness (in): 25″ Model: 6, minimum thickness (in): 1/32
Dimensions hawed (in): 25″ Model: 43 x 46 x 31, 37″ Model: 43 x 58 x 31, 50″ Model: 50 x 71 x 31

61KHg0E1r+L._AC_SX569_.jpg
 
aside from the $6,000.00 cost of the machines you have the continuing cost of blades at $45,00 to $70.00 a blade and the cost of roll of sanding paper. which is not cheap.

But i found out under powered tools do not work very well. When you are putting pressure on the piece as your cutting the blade will flex giving you a cut that wonders. You should be able to push a 3 inch thick piece of hardwood though the saw with only 2 fingers.
power and precision go hand in hand.

so once you have your wood cut down to modeling size then those little table top machines will handle the work.
 
Mog,
Don't let those fancy machines with way too high prices stop you. You don't need everything to build a nice vessel. I bought my model tools mainly on the second hand market and they are mainly the small proxxon machines, with the exception of the bandsaw machine (scheppach Basa1). But even that was not really expensive to buy. I even know a modeler here in the Netherlands who has a small wooden box with some knives, chisels, files, hammers and saws. And he builds the most beautiful POF ships out of a pile of lime laths. He buys those laths from a supplier in this kind of stuff. I have a supplier in Germany who is really cheap and an amound of all kind of woods. But I'm sure in the UK there is a supplier too.
 
Don't let those fancy machines with way too high prices stop you.

i totally agree those tools are used in a business setting and get used way more than your average hobbyist. I would nor even suggest such tools for just building ship models. the bandsaw is a 500 pound machine bolted to the floor

as a note
Harold Hahn originally cut his frames out by hand
 
the big machines are use for cutting down heavy lumber into modeling size pieces.

my tools for modeling are small 10 inch bandsaw i got at a rummage sale for 20 bucks., a 4 inch disk sander you can see being used in the Alfred stern build got that little jewel at a garage sale for a few bucks. table saw is a Jarmac i bought many years ago and it is still in service. Nothing fancy just a basic little tale saw and it does the job quite well. and a lot of hand tools and Dremel which i use a lot
 
Like most of us, I have limited funds for my hobbies so I’m always looking for a deal. Depending on your locale the second hand market is your friend. That said I’m in a small town with limited used deals to be found :(. I found this little 5” disk sander at Menards (on line) that looks just like the Proxxon or Micromark sander that cost 4 times as much.
www.menards.com

Performax® Corded 5" Bench Top Disc Sander

The Performax® 5" bench top disc sander is a precision device for fine sanding work. A balanced DC motor delivers powerful, vibration-free operation. Use it for all types of wood, steel, non-ferrous and precious metals, plastics, Plexiglas, and fiberglass. It can be mounted horizontally and...
www.menards.com www.menards.com
 
I'm in the same situation like Oliver. There is a lot available on Amazon and Aliexpress for low prizes. Good stuff. I use a lot of these things. Also I build tools myself, cheap and it works for when you're not a professional.
I also make money for my hobby by writing for a model magazine.
 
Guys thanks for the great advise , as much as I like a good debate, for me my original point was suggestions for a good starter scratch build & some good plans. I have fully functioning wood shop with all bells & whistles tools and I know how to use them , however at the end of the day I'm just a simple builder who enjoys the craft, I build for the builder so the only person I have to please is me
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
table top thickness sander.
Click to expand...
If you do need the following two specific tools,,,,,,,for scratch building the thickness sander has been one of the most used tools in my arsenal. That and a 4 inch table saw as mentioned above. I have the Jim Byrnes thickness sander but as he recently passed away you may want to call Donna Byrnes to see if there are any still in stock as the business is still up and running at least for accessories and parts. https://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/sander5.html His saws are arguably the best in existence, but I have been using a less expensive unit from Micro-Mark for 20 years with good success.
Allan
 
Thanks Allan , I will definitely look into the Thickness sander, something I don't have , I have a band saw what works well on smaller stock, but will at the 4 inch table also.
Mike
 
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