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Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

Bob Cleek said:
the marketing of plans and building practicums,
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Bob Cleek said:
publishing practicums, modeling plans, and instructional materials.
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This is an intriguing idea. Could this work for those that have the tools but not the desire to research and draft a full set of plans? Something less than going the route of the books like Naiad and Euryalus that have the all the drawings and "how to" descriptions. Maybe just a library of drawings of a given ship and even the contract if it can be found. A problem is would there be a market? How many drawings are needed for a complete package? Would a full set of lofted frames plus the typical five or six plans found for a ship at RMG be enough or should it include the many additional detailed drawings found in books.
Allan
 
dockattner said:
... If someone is wanting to build directly from the kit help them do that to the best of their ability. If someone wants to build from scratch help them do that to the best of their ability. If someone is clearly on a budget - give them tips for improving their outcomes on a budget. If someone is clearly comfortable with investing more in the hobby - guide them toward resources that maximize their outcomes in that particular lane.
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That sounds like a pretty good description of what goes on in this forum! :)
 
A long time ago, I built this with very few tools. A coping saw to cut the frames out. A home-made scalpel to cut the planks from 1/16th inch obeche, a pin vice, a pair of tweezers, steel ruler, dividers, and that was about all. I got the plans from a David MacGregor book.
The frames were cheap plywood.



Scottish Maid frames (Large).jpg8 Knife with lettering.jpgScottish Maid (Large).jpg
 
Great discussion here Jim. Personally, I aspire to build that which is pleasing to my eye and what I admire from other builders' projects, that's the beauty of what this type of forum offers. Cost is something I try to manage according to my skill level, that is the more skillful I get the more I tend to spend on certain tools. I would have to say the cost of this hobby has not had an effect on my interaction in this forum, at least that I am aware of.
I would love to build from scratch one day, just not sure how far to go with it at this time. I can tell you one thing though; I will not use a laser burner on anything.
 
What I suspect may come to replace ship model kits entirely will be the marketing of plans and building practicums, possibly together with optional raw building stock and fittings sold separately online by a limited number of vendors. This really is how ship modeling worked in the days before kits existed. Everybody will, to some extent, have to become a scratch modeler if they want to build a ship model. Because the market niche is so small, there may be just enough meat on the bone to make a reasonable profit publishing practicums, modeling plans, and instructional materials. Even though, writing them will always probably be a "labor of love." Those who "build only kits" will have to adapt. Darwin was right: "Organisms which fail to adapt to changing environments go extinct."


exactly what i have been doing for the past 35 years with the "timbering sets" these are packages of milled wood usable for scratch building. The idea is to offer scale wood to builders who do not have the larger woodworking tools to cut down rough lumber into scale size material. A builder can either make their own fittings or buy them separately online. The timbering set are custom made for Harold Hahn's modeling plans. Instruction starts with Hahn and his published work and continue to be added to by build logs. Then i took it a step farther with the Sir Edward Hawke for those who do not want to cut out frames from rough stock. You now have the frame parts to build up framing. The builder is starting with the bare minimum.

the concept between commercial kits and scratch building the gray area of the semi-scratch

Sie Edward Hawke project

cost under $150.00 for an historical researched subject plank on frame that anyone with minimum skills and tools can build
cutting cost
no fancy printed box with molded insets to hold the pieces and parts
no cost in printing instructions they are free on the forum
no cost for the plans free to download
designed to use ever possible square inch of material to cut weight and shipping costs

many know about the Swan model fun fact the first model Greg Herbert built was the Hannah from a timbering set his second model was the Druid again a Hahn ship built from a timbering set. From there the rest is history.

i would call the semi scratch concept not a true kit and not true scratch building it is the gateway to wherever you want to go.
 
Yes, and research/drawing packages are available from Ancre and Seawatch for those interested.

Roger
 
actually the in between of semi scratch is not a new idea it had been known as "kit bashing" for a long time. Kit bashing started to fall out of favor because a builder bought a kit and spent good money on stuff that was tossed out and replaced. I cannot tell you how many times i sent out hull planking to replace the strips that were too narrow to plank a hull the right way.
What happened was builders began to think i sure would of lover to just buy the bulkheads and fittings and ordered my own choice of planking and wood.
It is a catch 22 situation for the kit maker to upgrade so the builder did not have to replace parts the cost of the kit goes up. Fittings designed for each kit rather than generic fittings that are wrong or out of scale cost more. Sourcing quality wood cost more, better instructions cost more.
Kit makers in China are on the right track by offering upgrades to a basic kit. Now if the restaurant idea of the buffet style was applied to model ship kits where a builder starts with the basic structure and can pick and choose the parts, quality and what they want to add to a kit from an inventory then a kit can be made to fit most any budget or skill level.

it might be possible to do this at the retail level if a retailer of kits bought a few dozed of the same kit and sold the parts either buy all of the kit or parts of the kit.
 
From m'y perspective, I was attracted by the hobby after visiting naval museum and received by my wife a kit from AL - San Francisco v1. Then discovered two forums, including this one.

My skill level and my budget orienter me to model kit. But discovered thereafter the others shops from Members with Higher skill than me. Bashing kit and scrachbulding appeared to me the best step. I invested a lot in tools and some good books. Finally, due of my age and hearth conditions, the conclusion for myself is that I Will try to finish the four kit on the shelces and opt to the inbetween solution for a last one like one New POF chimères styles ship.
 
I thought that I would never say this but I actually find the better plastic model posts to be interesting. These guys have a real desire to build an historically accurate model and the aftermarket allows them to source the replacement parts to do so.

I have no desire to build one myself. I can’t imagine the skill required to glue tiny photo etch parts to a precise location using CA, but I enjoy their results.

Roger
 
Kurt Konrath said:
I have seen those who take a basic kit and add details and care and make a grand model of simple ship, way more than the instructions and manufacture designed it for, and this is still "kit built" modeling.
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I completely agree. It's just a matter of will and determination. You can take a kit model from the worst cheapest wood and make it from pear and add top details.
 
I draw plans, but am not exactly overwhelmed in the rush to get them, even at the price of less than a cup of coffee, but it keeps me busy. I have never drawn warship models, and that is where the greater interest lies.

Aridity with grablines - Copy copy (Large) - Copy.jpg
 
Wikipedia notes "Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kit bashing or buying it pre-assembled. The reasons hobbyists scratch build may vary. Often a desired model is unavailable in kit form in the desired scale, or entirely non-existent. Sometimes the hobbyist may be dissatisfied with the accuracy or detail of kits that are available. Other times a hobbyist will opt to scratchbuild simply for the challenge. A hobbyist may also scratchbuild out of economy, as often the raw materials cost less than a packaged commercial kit."

Maybe a little different perspective. Having built wooden ship models since the early 80's I've seen what is called a "Kit" evolve dramatically. Consider the "old school" Marine Model and Model Shipways kits, a rough shaped solid wood hull, limited documentation in terms of instructions and plans, no laser cut parts, never enough wood to complete the build, cast parts that oftentimes were inaccurate or poorly cast, limited rigging, blocks, etc. In many respects accurately finishing these builds comes close to the definition of scratch building.

  • Kits can range from affordable to eye-watering, but they offer structure and support. True, however "KIT" is a broad definition! Also, the quality of kit design, scale and material varies considerably.
  • Scratch might seem cheap at first, until you factor in plans, wood, tools, mistakes, and time. Depends, how many of you have completed a kit without having to buy additional supplies, paint, rigging, etc.
  • Do you think one is more "accessible" than the other? No
  • Have rising kit prices changed your build habits? No
  • And does cost affect how you participate in the forum or interact with others No.
 
dockattner said:
…….. Wouldn't it be better to just support people in whatever approach they might choose? Read the room! If someone is wanting to build directly from the kit help them do that to the best of their ability. If someone wants to build from scratch help them do that to the best of their ability. If someone is clearly on a budget - give them tips for improving their outcomes on a budget. If someone is clearly comfortable with investing more in the hobby - guide them toward resources that maximize their outcomes in that particular lane.

And if someone is just trying to have fun then celebrate their accomplishments without pushing them in a direction they aren't wanting/trying to go.
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Well said Paul, I totally agree with you.
 
It’s perfectly fine if someone chooses to build from scratch, just as it’s perfectly fine to build from kits, or do both. Here at SOS, we don’t divide members by their modeling preferences or rank them by skill level. We are voices from around the globe, each with our own ideas and ways of bringing those ideas to life. Some of us are just beginning, others are masters of the craft, but together we shape a community where all are welcome. In the end, we’re all trying to make SOS a home for anyone who finds joy in building ships, no matter the method.
 
Roger Pellett said:
Yes, and research/drawing packages are available from Ancre and Seawatch for those interested.
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It’s not just ANCRE and Seawatch- there are more than several other sources for ship plans, but they tend to be expensive and offer limited variety. We're simply trying to compare the overall costs of kit building versus scratch building.
 
I guess its time I chimed in. When I "finished" Norske Lov those many years ago I realized that I could have made the frames and done her POF. The model is a conversation piece but it did not satisfy some irrational need. I began researching her and came up empty handed. I found myself in Dublin in 1982 and couldn't help but think how close the Nordic museums were and that I could just pop in and see if the boat really existed.
Since then I have drawn my own plans for a home remodel, gone through the approval process and performed said remodel. I moved on the build a garage as well. In that time frame I acquired a few tools. I also went off and built a classical guitar or two. Yep, more tools.
Today I was diagnosed with arthritis in both hands. I was told it is only a matter of time. That commodity I thought I had plenty of. I took on Ballona because she is is an attractive ship. There are kits available but I would end up checking the details. Since I had to research anyway and I have most of the necessary tools it seamed reasonable to go from scratch. I had no idea how much time would be consumed in lofting the plans. (I have yet to loft the frames.). Would I have built from a kit? Probably not. I have this silly need to do as much as I can. Will I cast my own cannons? I may not be in control of that. Time will tell.
warren
 
Jimsky said:
... together we shape a community where all are welcome. In the end, we’re all trying to make SOS a home for anyone who finds joy in building ships, no matter the method.
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And not just ships. While ships are the primary focus of these forums, I enjoy the fact that other models (planes, cars, etc.) are just as welcome.
 
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