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Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

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After reading your detailed so what interpretation thread i lose interest for further building of modelships.I think instead repeating errors of the static models ,one should build functional models like rc models (vehicles planes etc)
In this case you can be sure with or without error
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
I am not defending the designer I am defending the category of "hobby kit" that has no rules just the goal to make money off the kit. It does not matter how refined a kit is or if a builder builds from a kit or scratch. A hobby kit by any other name is still a hobby kit at the bottom of the categories. So you can not apply real world sailing or naval architecture rules and standards to a hobby kit that has no real world function other than a past time hobby.
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
It may bug the crap out of you that an error continues, and it bugs others Hahn took artistic liberties but at the end of the day it is just a big so what!
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The error really doesn't bug me at all. I don't build kits anymore and don't ever plan to. I don't even have any investment in whether the designer acknowledged his error or not, although that factors into my assessment of his intellectual integrity, if not his technical skill as a modeler. I agree completely with your analysis above. What steams my clams, though, is an entire industry that has created and encouraged a "hobby" of building kits based on the premise that their products create models that are at the top "of the categories," rather than at the bottom, as you note. This is a misrepresentation that is understandably embraced by their customers, as well. The only reasons I object to that at all, and truly outside of these reasons I couldn't care less, is because the perception of the expensive kit model being the equivalent of the upper echelons of ship modeling creates an artificial barrier beyond which many otherwise excellent modelers will ever rise and the proliferation of completed kit models devalues the work of scratch builders in the eyes of the marketplace. The hobbyist who completes paint-by-numbers pictures will never be an artist if they believe advertising hype that tells them buying that paint-by-numbers kit will make them an "oil painting artist." I expect real fine artists feel the same about paint-by-numbers kits as many scratch modelers feel about ship model kits... they couldn't care less, but how many paint-by-numbers hobbyists might have gone on to far greater accomplishments if they hadn't been allowed to rationalize striving for nothing more than their next paint-by-numbers kit.
 
Korsan said:
My question is
To which category belongs a model builder who starts with a kit (even with a high priced ones) and the delivered accessories are actually massproduction and not specific for that ship (scale l,type etc) and has to produce them by himself to improve and to make the model as authentic as possible ?
(Actually for his own satisfaction and pleasure)
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That’s an excellent question. In my view, it doesn’t really matter what “category” we try to place such a builder into. Whether someone starts with a kit, scratch-builds everything, or combines both approaches, what really matters is the process itself, the enjoyment of solving problems, refining details, and bringing the model to life.

And really, why should we even try to categorize builders at all? This is our hobby, and the main thing is that each of us finds satisfaction and pleasure in the work we do.
 
Bob Cleek said:
The error really doesn't bug me at all. I don't build kits anymore and don't ever plan to. I don't even have any investment in whether the designer acknowledged his error or not, although that factors into my assessment of his intellectual integrity, if not his technical skill as a modeler. I agree completely with your analysis above. What steams my clams, though, is an entire industry that has created and encouraged a "hobby" of building kits based on the premise that their products create models that are at the top "of the categories," rather than at the bottom, as you note. This is a misrepresentation that is understandably embraced by their customers, as well. The only reasons I object to that at all, and truly outside of these reasons I couldn't care less, is because the perception of the expensive kit model being the equivalent of the upper echelons of ship modeling creates an artificial barrier beyond which many otherwise excellent modelers will ever rise and the proliferation of completed kit models devalues the work of scratch builders in the eyes of the marketplace. The hobbyist who completes paint-by-numbers pictures will never be an artist if they believe advertising hype that tells them buying that paint-by-numbers kit will make them an "oil painting artist." I expect real fine artists feel the same about paint-by-numbers kits as many scratch modelers feel about ship model kits... they couldn't care less, but how many paint-by-numbers hobbyists might have gone on to far greater accomplishments if they hadn't been allowed to rationalize striving for nothing more than their next paint-by-numbers kit.
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Bob (I see you are coming back to this thread), I have to be honest, I don’t share your perspective here. For me, this hobby isn’t about ranking builders or devaluing one approach over another. Kits, scratch, or anything in between, it all comes down to the same thing: enjoying the work and taking pride in the result.
The “paint-by-numbers” comparison doesn’t sit right with me because it dismisses the creativity, patience, and skill that go into building, even from a kit, but I certainly think it is a good hobby for someone who likes the art. Many excellent scratch builders got their start with kits, and that beginning doesn’t diminish where they’ve gone since.

I’d rather see this hobby as inclusive, where every modeler can grow in the direction that makes sense for them, without worrying about categories or hierarchies. I think we have already discussed this in another thread. No need to iterate from post to post ;)
 
What steams my clams, though, is an entire industry that has created and encouraged a "hobby" of building kits based on the premise that their products create models that are at the top "of the categories," rather than at the bottom, as you note. This is a misrepresentation that is understandably embraced by their customers, as well.

first you say "i could care less" which i do not believe of all the members here you care more than many of them about model ship building.

but anyhow i spent 4 years sitting in classes learning Commerical art and graphic design. and a 4-year apprenticeship. the bottom line was learning how to deceive the public, convincing them to buy products. spending hours retouching food products so they looked so good and appetizing on the box. Making statement like "museum quality" on a kit not entirely a false statement but not entirely true either. I wondered why it was Commerical art more like the art of deception.

encouraged a "hobby" of building kits based on the premise that their products create models that are at the top "of the categories," rather than at the bottom, as you note. This is a misrepresentation that is understandably embraced by their customers, as well. The only reasons I object to that at all,

well it could be said the builders are at the top of the bottom catagory and that is good enough for a lot of builders. That is a worthy accomplishment in itself. I do get your point like making that TV dinner look like fine 5 star dining. when the cost of the box and advertising is greater than the food inside. Perhaps in your eyes it is a hollow victory because you are aware of the upper categories. But the masses are happy with the deception.

The error really doesn't bug me at all. I don't build kits anymore and don't ever plan to. I don't even have any investment in whether the designer acknowledged his error or not, although that factors into my assessment of his intellectual integrity, if not his technical skill as a modeler.

fess up Bob it does bug you, that is the integrity. A character quirk shows more concern in the profit rather than the honesty and quality of the art. BUT this is not the catagory of the "art of model ship building" it is the commercialization of the art as a hobby, so the shoe fits.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
This discussion has drifted from the original cost between kit and scratch but i think that has burned itself out. Now the topic has taken an interesting turn to errors in model building. Because it has started here might as well continue here rather than start a new thread. I
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Hey Dave, maybe it would be nice to check with the person who started this thread if they’d like to continue the off-topic discussion. It could make sense to start a new thread called Errors in Model Building. Do you want one of the moderators to help set it up, or would you like to do it yourself?
 
Jimsky said:
Hey Dave, maybe it would be nice to check with the person who started this thread if they’d like to continue the off-topic discussion. It could make sense to start a new thread called Errors in Model Building. Do you want one of the moderators to help set it up, or would you like to do it yourself?
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:May be it can be divided
Already existing errors in the kit
And
Major errors which can be made by the builders
 
Korsan said:
Already existing errors in the kit
And
Major errors which can be made by the builders
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I see what you mean, but I’m a bit concerned that a new thread about errors might just turn into a place for complaining about kit manufacturers and how clever, or not, they were in designing their kits. What you’re asking for sounds more like a structured collection of data on each kit and the errors in them, if I understand you correctly. That could be really useful, and building kit logs where members point out mistakes and share how to fix them is incredibly valuable. They serve as a collective knowledge base, helping others avoid the same pitfalls, save time, and improve the accuracy and quality of their builds. Over time, these logs create a sort of informal reference guide for each kit, showing both common errors and practical solutions, something no instruction manual can fully provide.
 
This exact thing has been on my mind for the past few weeks. I have thought about starting a thread asking what changes would anyone like to see to improve their specific kits. I have hesitated in starting such a thread for the reason you give, pointing out mistakes by a kit manufacture may be construed as nothing more than a complaining session if solutions are not offered as well. It could include anything such as instructions, drawings, details about specific items, etc. Cost concerns would also be a factor.

On the opposite side, it could include posts about things that an individual is happy with etc.

Some suggestions might have a higher cost, but others would not or even reduce the cost. And, as you point out, if we know about an error, contributors to the thread can offer ideas on how to fix a possible error on our own. Hopefully the manufacturer will follow such a thread and make things better on future kits. Win win for all concerned.
Allan
 
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The “paint-by-numbers” comparison doesn’t sit right with me because it dismisses the creativity, patience, and skill that go into building, even from a kit, but I certainly think it is a good hobby for someone who likes the art. Many excellent scratch builders got their start with kits, and that beginning doesn’t diminish where they’ve gone since.

Bob did not coin the "paint by numbers" that came from master builders way back in the 1970s and when taken out if content i agree it lost it true meaning. You would have to take a deep dive and go way back to see the entire picture. do not hold me to this because i am not really sure but the "paint by numbers" came from talks between Harold Hahn, Bob Bruckshaw, NRG members and Howard Chapelle from the Smithsonian. It is in a round about way tied to an article "ship models that should not be built"

sitting right with you is a mute point it is just your opinion and nothing more or less.
 
Hey Dave, maybe it would be nice to check with the person who started this thread if they’d like to continue the off-topic discussion. It could make sense to start a new thread called Errors in Model Building. Do you want one of the moderators to help set it up, or would you like to do it yourself?

i think that might not be a good idea because it opens a can of worms. I do not even think we can define "errors" as to errors in historical accuracy, errors in instructions, errors in using the wrong wood, errors in advertising. Best leave well enough alone. As a scratch builder ALL kits are errors by their very nature. Pointing out errors by a manufacture will not change their product it is designed for maximum profit.
 
For me, this hobby isn’t about ranking builders or devaluing one approach over another. Kits, scratch, or anything in between, it all comes down to the same thing: enjoying the work and taking pride in the result.

JIm in your own words to enjoy this as an art or hobby or anything in between as i said there are no errors in art just freedom of being creative. Starting a topic on errors is inviting more problems that never existed in the first place.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
JIm in your own words to enjoy this as an art or hobby or anything in between as i said there are no errors in art just freedom of being creative. Starting a topic on errors is inviting more problems that never existed in the first place.
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As the owner of this thread, I’m not comfortable with it drifting away from the original question and turning into a debate about kit builders versus scratch building, or similar topics. We keep hitting the same wall repeatedly. I’m also concerned that the opinions of a few members are being treated as the “golden rule.” If the thread continues to stray from the original discussion, I would prefer to close it for further comments rather than allow it to be dominated by just one perspective on kits versus scratch building, why kit manufacturing makes their kits, and most of all: How to give up the super expensive kit building and become a scratch builder for much less money.
 
Hey Dave, maybe it would be nice to check with the person who started this thread if they’d like to continue the off-topic discussion.

so sorry i broke your rules i did not realize i needed to ask your permission to continue a conversation.

I would prefer to close it for further comments

by all means for your personal satisfaction shut it down your the one with the power and authority.
 
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