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Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

RussF said:
And not just ships. While ships are the primary focus of these forums, I enjoy the fact that other models (planes, cars, etc.) are just as welcome.
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Absolutely, that’s true, and it's one of the things that makes the forum feel welcoming. Still, our name is Ships of Scale, so naturally, ships remain at the heart of what brings most of us together.
 
shipbuilder said:
I draw plans, but am not exactly overwhelmed in the rush to get them, even at the price of less than a cup of coffee, but it keeps me busy. I have never drawn warship models, and that is where the greater interest lies.

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Bob, my main interest in model ship building has always been tugs and freighters. Whether we build from kits or scratch build there will always be a demand for persons such as yourself who can lay down a set of detailed drawings for us builders to work from. Here, in Canada I pay anywhere from thirty to seventy-five cups of coffee for my plans ;)

My WW 1 Coastal Freighter from a good set of drawings.

1748980617596.png
 
I like to build the obscure, or semi-obscure ships. as I find them more interesting. I also like the varied types, colours and sizes of merchant ships from a few tons to over quarter of a million tons. I haven't much space, so like building physically small models of large ships. This came about when I was at sea living in small cabins, and had the added problems getting them home a the end of the voyage.


Caithness-Shire.jpg
 
fourseas said:
Bob, my main interest in model ship building has always been tugs and freighters. Whether we build from kits or scratch build there will always be a demand for persons such as yourself who can lay down a set of detailed drawings for us builders to work from. Here, in Canada I pay anywhere from thirty to seventy-five cups of coffee for my plans ;)

My WW 1 Coastal Freighter from a good set of drawings.

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I built similar ships regularly - here Baron Vernon. Yours is a very nice model indeed !

Baron Vernon(Large).JPG
 
i have always scratch build.ill buy plans like model shipways sold from their kits. ill build and research the ship to make alterations to the plans as most plans are simplified and omitt many details.

what i really enjoy more than the build is the research. after working on the ship over several years, i learn almost everything there is to know about the working n life on my ship.

so by the time i finish the build, i have a fantastic voyage to tell my viewers... it had a life i could share that gave my model meaning.

as for kits... i tried one a friend gave me. i found the materials were cheap, the fittings were poor, and i never finished it because i got so frustrated following instructions and correcting design flaws.

as for cost difference... i think scratch builds cost more in the end after all the upgrades scratch building requires.
 
paul ron said:
i have always scratch build.ill buy plans like model shipways sold from their kits. ill build and research the ship to make alterations to the plans as most plans are simplified and omitt many details.

what i really enjoy more than the build is the research. after working on the ship over several years, i learn almost everything there is to know about the working n life on my ship.

so by the time i finish the build, i have a fantastic voyage to tell my viewers... it had a life i could share that gave my model meaning.

as for kits... i tried one a friend gave me. i found the materials were cheap, the fittings were poor, and i never finished it because i got so frustrated following instructions and correcting design flaws.

as for cost difference... i think scratch builds cost more in the end after all the upgrades scratch building requires.
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Your Viewers?
 
paul ron said:
what i really enjoy more than the build is the research.
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Some of us are into research, some of us are more into building. I personally like to know enough about what I'm doing to do the job well, but the research stops there. These models take forever to build as it is. I don't want to spend more time in research than I spend building. My life wouldn't be long enough! I consider myself a modeler, not a researcher. To each their own on 'that' one!

paul ron said:
i think scratch builds cost more in the end after all the upgrades scratch building requires.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this statement, in general, as the interpretation of its wording could actually prove to be a bit confusing/misleading to certain folks, namely newcomers to the hobby. I 'personally' find scratch-building to be much cheaper than buying kits! Bear in mind that I've spent my life slowly acquiring tools and equipment, as well as wood(s). Some tools I design and build myself, saving a lot of money along the way while also learning something new! When I come across a task that I'm not properly equipped for, the first thing I do is scratch my head and ask, "How can I pull this off?" If it's something minor, like a hand tool, a unique clamp style, a chisel, fixture, etc.... I have great fun figuring it out and making it. Something more complicated like a milling machine, drill press, lathe, etc., well that goes onto my list of things to save up for. In the meantime, until I can buy the machine, I'm learning how to properly use chisels, carving knives, drill motors as lathes, etc. that those machines only make easier to do! I could go on, but I won't.

If we stick with hobbies that are all in a similar field, we all naturally accumulate 'stuff' for those hobbies as time moves forward. That's going to happen no matter 'what' hobbies someone is into. In the 'long run', once we have lots of tools and equipment from our collected hobbies, and a good supply of old unused wood to boot... what's the cost other than new, needful research and the required time in building?

I'm not trying to be controversial. I just don't want folks to get the idea that scratch building is something reserved for only those privileged folks who can afford it. It is not! I personally find scratch building 'considerably' cheaper! It just takes a lot longer when the parts are not pre-made for you!
 
I rarely took more than 50 or 60 hours to build a model, all timed on a stopwatch. Cost of materials for me were always very low, and often built from offcuts. Tools were kept at a minimum and the most expensive item I have is a small lathe obtained 2nd hand 50 years ago fot £69.
As I have sold most of the 250 models I built in the past 30 years, I have come out well on top. I was not a professional ship model builder, as I spent over 30 years at sea. Because I built t he type of ship that was in greatest demand from collectors, seamen, or retired seamen, they virtually sold themselves. I never asked too much, and I usually modeled the ships "as built" unless the changes were obvious from photographs. I considered myself the "poor man's model shipbuilder - Here are some of them.

Bulk models 1 (Medium) (Small).JPGBulk models 2 (Medium).JPG
 
My experience with scratch is that it can be made as expensive or cheap as you want. A kit costs money but scratch can be done for very little. Do you want many or few tools, do you want new material or are you satisfied with old wood for example. Many tools to make custom wood cost money. Think of furniture wood that has to be made suitable. Those investments are one-time investments though. I use wood that I got for free, or a piece of furniture that I cut smaller. I think my workshop cost me about 1500 euro.
But that's because I buy my tools mostly on the 2nd hand market or make them myself. Materials I try to get for free or sometimes buy if no other is possible. Often have been lucky. But I also know someone who builds the most amazing ships using a crate of materials. Just search for the name Pauwels on modeling forum. This is his box material.
20191007_203045.jpg 20190814_224633.jpg
Source modelbouwforum. https://www.modelbouwforum.nl/threads/galjoot-80-voet-1-88.267729/
Buying a kit is for someone with a low budget sometimes a big piece of the budget.
I collected my stuff over 6 years. And so this amounts to something like 300 euros a year what I spent in total.
If I had bought building kits I would probably have spent more and besides, the costs now per year will only be limited to building materials. I have enough tools. There is always room for more but with what I have now I can get on well.
Then there is another choice I make. I don't like building a kit, put subject 53 on part 120. Not for me. I have more fun in discovering making the parts and find ways to achieve it. Scratchbuild is a much bigger challenge of your skill set. I like that.
 
Another perspective - if you buy a kit, everything (and I use that term loosely) is included, but the price can be high. You could scratch-build the hull of a three-masted square-rigger with very few tools, even a coping saw if you don't have a scroll saw. However, when it comes time to outfit her, without a lathe or 3D printer, you would need to buy guns. Without a rope walk, you would need to buy scale line - lots of it. Finally, unless you really like torture, you're going to buy blocks - many blocks. All these aftermarket parts could very likely exceed the original cost of the kit that contained them. Of course, there are many that start with a kit and still add all those parts, thereby spending even more, but it's their money.

I know, Robert, that you made blocks out of dots of glue and lines from microscopic wire, but you can't do that with larger scales. ;)

So that said, it could be very likely that the costs of scratch vs. kit might be about even for most - depending on the subject.
 
MThomas said:
I really like your wooden toolbox. Did you make that?
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Not mine, It's Pauwels box with tools, I know he only use that to make those fantastic ships. Another thing he use are the books from Witsen and Yk. No drawings.
 
We're simply trying to compare the overall costs of kit building versus scratch building.

you really cannot answer that in a one vs the other, because there are so many variables and your personal mind set of where your going with the hobby.

if your a hobby person and likes building kits and you decide you want to try a wooden ship model. You buy the kit and everything you need in in the box. It might take you a year or two to finish the model. If you find it was not to your liking fine, then you're done. if you want to try another down the road and have no desire to master fine scale woodworking and joinery just want to build then i would say for this person kits are the less expensive way to go.

if you have a desire to learn scale model woodworking, scale joinery and like maritime history. You want to explore how a wooden ship is actually built then for this person scratch building is far less expensive in the long run. Also in the long run you acquire tools, materials, skill and knowledge which reach a point you have everything you will ever need to build anything and as many as you desire. So if this is your end game jump right into scratch building besides ship kits are not designed or built like a real ship so you may gain skill but no knowledge of a shipwright.

if your like me and have a wife who is an artist, crafty and always has some project in the works you can bet she has a fine stash of tools.
no i did not marry her for her tools she collected them after we said "i do" almost 50 years ago But there is a yours and mine.
"echoes in my household "i don't mind you using my tools just put them back where you found them"
Personally i have collected more tools than i would ever need and sources for wood, 3d printing, a CAD work station and stuff lots of stuff.
So asking a person like me i have to say scratch building is far less expensive it isn't funny.
 
The kits now a days cost vary with quality and details provided by manufacture, and this issue is not unique to sailing ships. I also do model railroading (HO 1:87 scale) and with the engines and cars kits, you can get a simple kit with some assembly required for $25 or a fully detailed kit for $50+. As for engines, the price for a single engine can now range from $150-500 depending on quality, does it have upgraded electronic control (DCC) and if it has sound installed. Also the level of details to make it a generic or super detailed to the exact engine the real one is based on.

As for tools, you end up with lots of tools to build and maintain these scale models and the track and electronics that control them.

To me it boils down to not how much money you want to spend, but do you want to buy a simple kit, spend lots of money adding details and functions, or just buy the nice ready to go expensive kit ready to work. I

have seen those in both hobbies start with a simple kit and by the time they replace or upgrade the kit, they have spent as much or more then on a quality kit.

I must say, even though I am still learning the what and how to, I enjoy the hands on upgrading of kits to make them look better. Maybe I will do a fully scratch built ship in future when I have more time.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
We're simply trying to compare the overall costs of kit building versus scratch building.

you really cannot answer that in a one vs the other, because there are so many variables and your personal mind set of where your going with the hobby.

if your a hobby person and likes building kits and you decide you want to try a wooden ship model. You buy the kit and everything you need in in the box. It might take you a year or two to finish the model. If you find it was not to your liking fine, then you're done. if you want to try another down the road and have no desire to master fine scale woodworking and joinery just want to build then i would say for this person kits are the less expensive way to go.

if you have a desire to learn scale model woodworking, scale joinery and like maritime history. You want to explore how a wooden ship is actually built then for this person scratch building is far less expensive in the long run. Also in the long run you acquire tools, materials, skill and knowledge which reach a point you have everything you will ever need to build anything and as many as you desire. So if this is your end game jump right into scratch building besides ship kits are not designed or built like a real ship so you may gain skill but no knowledge of a shipwright.

if your like me and have a wife who is an artist, crafty and always has some project in the works you can bet she has a fine stash of tools.
no i did not marry her for her tools she collected them after we said "i do" almost 50 years ago But there is a yours and mine.
"echoes in my household "i don't mind you using my tools just put them back where you found them"
Personally i have collected more tools than i would ever need and sources for wood, 3d printing, a CAD work station and stuff lots of stuff.
So asking a person like me i have to say scratch building is far less expensive it isn't funny.
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You raise a good point at the beginning, Dave, that it's really not a simple one-versus-the-other situation. There are so many variables, including what tools someone already has, their goals, their experience level, and where they want to take the hobby. That’s why I found your final statement a bit surprising. ;) Saying scratch building is far less expensive, as if that’s true for everyone, seems to contradict the flexibility you acknowledged at the beginning of your post. For some of us, starting from scratch would require investing in new tools and materials that kits already provide, which can make kits a more economical and accessible choice. In the end, I think it depends a lot on the individual’s path and what they already bring to the bench. Just my two cents, with respect.
 
the only thing I would add is to leave room for discussion of new technology and how it can be used to help build models. I for one prefer painting a 3d printed part over those blasted britania metal fittings that are the current norm.

Those who can carve do, those that can't carve, print. lol
 
Determining the cost of kit building versus scratch building isn’t a simple matter, believe me, I am fully aware. It well depends on many, many variables. But... when it comes to kits, IMHO, I tend to look at two main factors: the brand name and the level of complexity. Behind the brand, often reflects quality, what’s actually in the box, from the materials provided to the clarity of the instructions. Most kit builders quickly learn which brands they trust and consider for future projects. Then there’s the complexity of the build itself. By weighing these two elements, builders choose a kit that suits both their interests and budget, the price becomes what they’re willing to pay for the experience.

I only brought up this discussion because I’ve noticed that some members regularly state that scratch building is much cheaper. In reality, the comparison isn’t that straightforward.
 
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