Which comes first, the planks or the stem.

[RichardT]

I am attempting the Euro model Ajax and wondered about best practice in any model in terms of adding the stem to the bow.

A couple of things about planking that I have wondered about with a few different builds I've had.

As a best practice, do modelers prefer to plank first or put on the bow stem first or put it on between the two planking's? Most of my experience has been with two layer planking.
Also, do most builders prefer to use the "Fan" measurement method to determine widths of planks or eyeball it making sure to thin beyond a half plank width? What about between first and second planks?

Appreciate your input. I am about to start the first planking, and given the lack of instructions, I thought I would check with others to see their stem preferences.
Thanks, Richard

 

[AllanKP69]

The knee of the head can go on later but as the stem is a part of the bow and the planking seats in the rabbet in the stem on the actual ship, the stem had to go on first. For the kit, I am guessing you have choices.

I have always found using tick strips to mark out the width of the planking at each frame or bulkhead works very well but many have found the fan to be a great help as well. With 20 or 30 strakes of planking below the wales, it would be a lot of eyeballing and asking for trouble.

Allan

 

[Bob Cleek]

Ditto to what Allan said. Lay out your planking carefully and evenly. Cut your planking to shape accurately.

With properly spiled planks, there's no reason not to plank in a single layer. I've always thought the double layer planking some kit manufacturers promote is intended to let novices make a dog's breakfast of the first layer and hopefully do a bit better job when they get to the second layer. Why do the planking job twice? I know of no experienced modelers who double plank.

 

[Namabiiru]

Well, it may also be that if you don’t want to paint the hull, walnut looks very nice, but is more easily (and cheaply) done with veneer than full planks. Remember also, there is a class of intermediate builders who don’t necessarily make a dog’s breakfast of their planking, but don’t have the resources to acquire or produce after-market planks wide enough for a properly spiled planking job. My $0.02 based on limited experience—your mileage may vary.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Well, it may also be that if you don’t want to paint the hull, walnut looks very nice, but is more easily (and cheaply) done with veneer than full planks. Remember also, there is a class of intermediate builders who don’t necessarily make a dog’s breakfast of their planking, but don’t have the resources to acquire or produce after-market planks wide enough for a properly spiled planking job. My $0.02 based on limited experience—your mileage may vary.

True that. Have you ever tried veneer sheets instead of sawn scale-dimensioned modeling wood? They solved the issue you're describing for me. They come in all sorts of wood species and sizes. The smaller sized sheets, often sold in "craft packs," and the "edge banding veneer," are suitably sized and relatively inexpensive. (The huge 4'x8' sheets are costly, of course.) It cuts easily with a box knife or razor blade. Some of the thinner veneers can even be cut with a scissors. Some of it comes with a "peel and stick" adhesive backing, too, although I've never used it myself. It's used a lot in furniture repair.

There is a grain difference with veneer, in that it is peeled off the log with a knife rather than being sawn, but, for modeling purposes where less grain figuring is preferable, it's not an issue. As for bending, the veneer is so thin that it is easier to work with than sawn wood and is more like a sheet of paper than a stick.

See: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=veneer+s...2973195f0e&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_52woqt1wkb_e

 

[Namabiiru]

True that. Have you ever tried veneer sheets instead of sawn scale-dimensioned modeling wood? They solved the issue you're describing for me. They come in all sorts of wood species and sizes. The smaller sized sheets, often sold in "craft packs," and the "edge banding veneer," are suitably sized and relatively inexpensive. (The huge 4'x8' sheets are costly, of course.) It cuts easily with a box knife or razor blade. Some of the thinner veneers can even be cut with a scissors. Some of it comes with a "peel and stick" adhesive backing, too, although I've never used it myself. It's used a lot in furniture repair.

There is a grain difference with veneer, in that it is peeled off the log with a knife rather than being sawn, but, for modeling purposes where less grain figuring is preferable, it's not an issue. As for bending, the veneer is so thin that it is easier to work with than sawn wood and is more like a sheet of paper than a stick.

See: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=veneer+sheets+wood&adgrpid=1337008522386630&hvadid=83563293226816&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83564068453966:loc-190&hydadcr=13520_13392031&mcid=7d28de2d09313ec88de99d03c31c45af&msclkid=1f5e4e41028915d6acd6262973195f0e&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_52woqt1wkb_e

I would have thought veneer is a bit thin for primary hull planking, but it may be worth a try. Pretty much all the edge banding I’ve found comes with heat activated adhesive already, which, when I think about it might make the job that much easier.

 

[Philski]

I would have thought veneer is a bit thin for primary hull planking, but it may be worth a try. Pretty much all the edge banding I’ve found comes with heat activated adhesive already, which, when I think about it might make the job that much easier.

Veneer, being as thin as it is, I don't think in the long run would be substantial enough for single planking. But where there's a will, there's away. You just have to be careful when handling and real carefull when sanding. A sharp rotary knife cuts veneer easily. A couple of pictures, the AL San Francisco II is double planked ( and my first wooden ship model), the second and much larger is the OcCre Senora Nuestra del Pilar which is single planked. No veneer used on either model.

 

[Roger Pellett]

A true plank on frame ship model has closely spaced frames that when properly faired will support a single layer of scale thickness planking. Properly spiled only light sanding is required for a finished hull.

Most kits today are Plank on Bulkhead kits with bulkheads spaced much more widely than the frames on a Plank on Frame model. This can result in planking that does not lay in fair curves with lumps and bumps in the wide spaces between bulkheads. As Bob said with lots of sanding and possibly some goop, a reasonably shaped hull can result. The mystery wood, known in the kit biz as Walnut is provided to hide the first layer.

Roger

 

[Bob Ellis]

I am attempting the Euro model Ajax and wondered about best practice in any model in terms of adding the stem to the bow.

A couple of things about planking that I have wondered about with a few different builds I've had.

As a best practice, do modelers prefer to plank first or put on the bow stem first or put it on between the two planking's? Most of my experience has been with two layer planking.
Also, do most builders prefer to use the "Fan" measurement method to determine widths of planks or eyeball it making sure to thin beyond a half plank width? What about between first and second planks?

Appreciate your input. I am about to start the first planking, and given the lack of instructions, I thought I would check with others to see their stem preferences.
Thanks, Richard

In order to avoid the planks buckling at the bow it's necessary to edge bend the tapered plank downwards. Edge bending a .6mm walnut veneer is hard to impossible! It splits easily. If you double plank get fresh stock planking, use 1.5mm inner planking and 1mm outer planking. Then you can edge bend. You might also find cherry is easier, better looking and reasonably priced.
Amati Victory line kits use these thicknesses, as do Caldercraft. The lower end of the market cut costs with .6 veneer.
As for the stem planking some kits leave off the stem timber and plank leaving a narrow gap up the line of the stem so it has to be filed and trimmed to fit the stem neatly into place. Personally I've never done this. I favour cutting a rabbet and making sure the planks join the stem neatly, accurately and without gaps. Dry fit your planks to check you accuracy before fixing permanently.

 

[Philski]

In order to avoid the planks buckling at the bow it's necessary to edge bend the tapered plank downwards. Edge bending a .6mm walnut veneer is hard to impossible! It splits easily. If you double plank get fresh stock planking, use 1.5mm inner planking and 1mm outer planking. Then you can edge bend. You might also find cherry is easier, better looking and reasonably priced.
Amati Victory line kits use these thicknesses, as do Caldercraft. The lower end of the market cut costs with .6 veneer.
As for the stem planking some kits leave off the stem timber and plank leaving a narrow gap up the line of the stem so it has to be filed and trimmed to fit the stem neatly into place. Personally I've never done this. I favour cutting a rabbet and making sure the planks join the stem neatly, accurately and without gaps. Dry fit your planks to check you accuracy before fixing permanently.

And you can install blocking for support where needed. I used balsa at the bow.

 

[Bob Cleek]

My suggestion for the use of veneer for planking was in the context of double-planked hulls in response to post #4. For single planking, a scale thickness plank stock is more appropriate.

Neither would I advise edge-setting veneer planking. Actually, I wouldn't advise anything other than very minor edge-setting of any planking. I know some have produced very fine planking jobs by edge-setting. Myself, I prefer to cut spiled planks to shape, rather than edge-setting straight sawn wood. I think the wood has enough on its plate being bent in only one direction and trying to bend it into more than one direction at the same time just isn't fair to the wood or the builder. Others mileage seems to differ, though.

 

[Namabiiru]

My suggestion for the use of veneer for planking was in the context of double-planked hulls in response to post #4. For single planking, a scale thickness plank stock is more appropriate.

Ah! I misunderstood what you meant. Since your original premise was more or less that second-planking was a waste of time, I assumed your suggestion was in relation to single planking. Veneer makes more sense in that context.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Ah! I misunderstood what you meant. Since your original premise was more or less that second-planking was a waste of time, I assumed your suggestion was in relation to single planking. Veneer makes more sense in that context.

Yes, your post #5 explaining reasons for double planking made perfect sense in terms of cost, etc. Milled dimensioned stock is very expensive, relatively speaking. If someone doesn't have the machinery to mill their own modeling wood and wishes to have a quality finish wood species planking, veneer is a good option, particularly if they properly spile the planks. I expect it wouldn't be so good for edge-setting, but spiling eliminates the need to edge-set the planks and avoids having to torture the wood with heat bending. Veneer is expensive in large sheets, but not so bad in smaller sized sheets.

 

[dnalley]

Ditto to what Allan said. Lay out your planking carefully and evenly. Cut your planking to shape accurately.

With properly spiled planks, there's no reason not to plank in a single layer. I've always thought the double layer planking some kit manufacturers promote is intended to let novices make a dog's breakfast of the first layer and hopefully do a bit better job when they get to the second layer. Why do the planking job twice? I know of no experienced modelers who double plank.

Obviously, I am a novice, and I am trying to achieve a hull I can work with. Can you name me a ship that was not double planked in true life? Was it made of steel? Was it a single plank canoe? Little Sailboat or what?

 

[Roger Pellett]

Real wooden ships in the Age of sail were NOT double planked. It is an invention by the kit manufacturers to save money. If they would more closely space their bulkheads it would not be necessary.

Later on, c1900’s there were some double planked small craft. These were diagonally planked wit each layer of planking laid in the opposite direction in a cris-cross pattern. There was a later of glued fabric between the planking.

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

Obviously, I am a novice, and I am trying to achieve a hull I can work with. Can you name me a ship that was not double planked in true life? Was it made of steel? Was it a single plank canoe? Little Sailboat or what?

What Roger said just now. With very few exceptions for special applications, real ships and boats weren't ever double planked. Laminated hulls didn't come along much before the age of plywood. With the advent of stronger adhesives, however, some small craft are being built today with epoxy laminated wooden hulls. I can't name you a ship model kit of a vessel that was ever double planked in real life. That's for sure!

Do some reading up on how real ships and boats are constructed. I am sure when you get up to speed on the construction practices, you'll see that any challenges you are encountering now "trying to achieve a hull (you) can work with" are unnecessary when the shipbuilding technology developed and perfected over millennia is employed. Few ship model kits bear much resemblance to real shipbuilding practice.

 

[AllanKP69]

Do some reading up on how real ships and boats are constructed

Hi Dale,
Along those same lines, there are free downloads of hundreds of contracts for English ships in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries that will help you and hundreds more that can be photographed at the National Archives at Kew. They all give the thickness of the various planking of the hull. There are also cross section drawings that show the thickness of the planking that are helpful in understanding where the various planks are. Obviously the inboard planking is unnecessary if the ship is built plank of bulkhead.
Allan

Cross section terminology sketch. The dimensions are for this particular ship so not applicable to every ship. The thicknesses for any size English ship can be found in David Steel's scantlings, in the Establishments, in contracts and in some contemporary cross section drawings.



Contemporary cross section drawing with the thickness of some of the planking marked.

The attached PDF is an example of paragraphs of a contract for a 74 gun ship of 1781 describing planking of the hull. As stated above, wooden double planking is a kit phenomenon and was not done on a ship.

 

[Roger Pellett]

By the way, the planking inside the frames shown on Allan’s post above is not considered to be “double planking.” It is called “Ceiling.” While it is adds to the longitudinal strength of the vessel it is not part of the membrane that keeps water from leaking into the hull.

Despite what the advertising on the box might say, the construction of a Plank on Bulkhead model kit in no way resembles that of a real ship.

Roger

 

[dnalley]

Real wooden ships in the Age of sail were NOT double planked. It is an invention by the kit manufacturers to save money. If they would more closely space their bulkheads it would not be necessary.

Later on, c1900’s there were some double planked small craft. These were diagonally planked wit each layer of planking laid in the opposite direction in a cris-cross pattern. There was a later of glued fabric between the planking.

Roger

I stand corrected.

Hi Dale,
Along those same lines, there are free downloads of hundreds of contracts for English ships in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries that will help you and hundreds more that can be photographed at the National Archives at Kew. They all give the thickness of the various planking of the hull. There are also cross section drawings that show the thickness of the planking that are helpful in understanding where the various planks are. Obviously the inboard planking is unnecessary if the ship is built plank of bulkhead.
Allan

Cross section terminology sketch. The dimensions are for this particular ship so not applicable to every ship. The thicknesses for any size English ship can be found in David Steel's scantlings, in the Establishments, in contracts and in some contemporary cross section drawings.

View attachment 530627

Contemporary cross section drawing with the thickness of some of the planking marked.
View attachment 530628
The attached PDF is an example of paragraphs of a contract for a 74 gun ship of 1781 describing planking of the hull. As stated above, wooden double planking is a kit phenomenon and was not done on a ship.

Well, bust my buttons! Planked inside and outside of bulkhead frames. I looked for a plank on frame model to start with but, to no avail. Oh, the novice I am...

 

[Bob Cleek]

Well, bust my buttons! Planked inside and outside of bulkhead frames. I looked for a plank on frame model to start with but, to no avail. Oh, the novice I am...

In the hope of your not remaining a novice forever, let me say that those are just frames. Not "bulkhead frames." Bulkheads are nauticalese for "walls." "Ceiling" is the inboard planking hung on frames. It's confusing, I know, but the sooner you are able to pick up the language, the easier ship modeling becomes. It's no different that houses, which are built with "siding," "framing," and "drywall."