Byrnes Model Machines News

[Bob Cleek]

Word on the internet is that Donna Byrnes recently reported that Byrnes Model Machines will be back in full operation producing and selling all their machines as of the first of the year. If you are sure you want a specific tool as soon as it is available send an email to the business email using the Contact Us link on the website https://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com

There reportedly has been no change in the design or high quality of the Byrnes machines. They are the same "finestkind" machines Jim built for so many years. They are being manufactured at the Byrnes plant managed by Donna Byrnes and operated by Jim's former right-hand man.

I have all three, the table saw, and the thickness and disk sanders. These are the finest powertools I've ever owned and I've owned a lot of power tools over the years. Now's your chance to buy a new one for the retail price instead of the $1,200 somebody paid for a used one on eBAy right after Jim's passing.

 

[RogerD]

….. I have all three, the table aw, and the thickness and disk sanders. These are the finest powertools I've ever owned and I've owned a lot of power tools over the years.

Totally agree with your comment Bob. I have all three too, best purchase/s I made in many years.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Good to hear the news!

I have the thickness sander, got for XMass the holiday before they closed up.

 

[glennb17]

Despite a small work space, the disk sander never leaves my bench. And the table saw that I got when Donna was just getting started again is incomparable, takes you to the next level. I'm really glad to hear they are going to be back to full production.

 

[Kolobok]

There is a disc sander on Ebay for 4K, description underlining that this is not in production anymore....

 

[Bob Cleek]

There is a disc sander on Ebay for 4K, description underlining that this is not in production anymore....

I'll have some of what he's smokin'!

5" Disc Sander - Jim Byrnes Model Machines - rare, out of production | eBay

5" Jim Byrnes Model Machines disc sander in excellent condition. 120V Machinist/collector owned and very lightly used. Clean and tested working! The Byrnes Disc Sander provides a level of precision simply not available until now [. ].

www.ebay.com

Somebody reportedly sold a Byrnes table saw for $1,200 on eBay right after Jim passed away. P.T. Barnum was right: "There's a sucker born every minute."

 

[Kolobok]

Actually there were several machines that popped up on ebay, one of the saws went for over 2.5K.
Thing is, musical instrument makers and various other craftsman use Burnes saws and thickness sanders so for them it is a tool
required for income. I can understand some one panicking and buying it. It obviously would not make sense for a hobbyist.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

I have several other hobbies, and multiple folks in them talk about the Burnes saw, thickness sander as well as disc sander.

Jim's quality was well known and deserved by those who work with scale wood, too small for normal woodworking tools.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

what am i missing? i just don't get it

my dad was into HO model railroading and as a kid him and i built all kinds of models, and i have been building models as a kid since 1956.
to this day i still use a Jarmac 4 inch table saw and a 4 inch disk sander from i think Mico Mart or Harbor Freight. The most i paid for these tools was from $50.00 to maybe $150.00 and never had a problem with using them. I have been a woodworker for 42 years.
so a disk sander for $4,500.00 and a table saw for $1,200 are you joking i can equip and entire shop for that kind of money.
I still go by the saying "it is not the tools it is how you use them"
Will my modeling be that much better if i use a $100.00 table saw or a $1,200.00 table saw?

 

[Kolobok]

table saw from the shop is 450 if I remember correctly and other machines are in line with that. High end but still affordable for hobbyist.
Sander is way better than Micro Mark (which I have). Prices we're discussing here are people speculating on ebay with. Doubt Jim would be able to sell many saws charging that much

 

[Bob Cleek]

I still go by the saying "it is not the tools it is how you use them"
Will my modeling be that much better if i use a $100.00 table saw or a $1,200.00 table saw?

Well, not at the crazy prices some paid thinking that when Jim passed away there wouldn't ever be any more, but hell yes, your modeling will benefit from using any of the Byrnes Model Machines "trifecta:" the table saw, and the thickness and disk sanders.

No, they aren't cheap, but they are more than fairly priced for what they are. They are simply the finest built, most highly accurate small woodworking machines of their kind, bar none. There have been adequate small table saws and sanders marketed in the past and a few still are now. All were and are "hobby" machines that lacked the power, quality of construction, and the dependable accuracy of the Byrnes machines. Given the relative price points, anybody in the power tool market for a micro-table saw, or thickness or disk sander would be nuts to buy anything but the Byrnes tools because, although the alternatives cost less, the quality and performance differences make the Byrnes tools a far better buy. You do get what you pay for. It's true that nobody needs power tools to build ship models. It's also true that anybody can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together, but who wouldn't rather have a Zippo?

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I come at this from a very specific area, That is near museum scale and POF. There are areas where the quality and accuracy and precision that are the traits of Byrnes machines can be kludged around. The differing perspectives seem to yield different priorities.

I too have an old Jarmac - a sewing machine motor and a fence that is shaky at best.
I have two 4" Dremels (one I bought, one that I inherited) both are occupying valuable under my bench space. The quality is perfectly awful.
I also burned out a mootor on my Unimat SL-1000 using its tablesaw attachment. It is both precise and accurate. This was before Jarmac was sold. Who bothers to read instructions? Who would believe that there are motors that should only be run for short time intervals?
The Jarmac disc sander motor is also not much of a motor. This one is taking up valuable inside storage space.
The various 2in1 4-5" disc sander/ 1" belt sander machines are also mostly useless. More lost storage space.

 

[Bob Cleek]

There are areas where the quality and accuracy and precision that are the traits of Byrnes machines can be kludged around. The differing perspectives seem to yield different priorities.

Absolutely true! Until I got my Byrnes table saw, I used my dad's 1950 Craftsman 8" table saw with a fine-toothed blade (as did Harold Hahn but absent his great results!) I got by with that and still managed to retain all my fingers. The Byrnes machines new retail prices, although very fair for what they are, were way beyond my hobby toys budget and still are, especially considering the "tariff" of a divorce if I'd paid retail for new ones! As with all the tools I've amassed over the years, I was lucky enough to stumble upon the opportunity to buy the saw, thickness sander and disk sander from a fellow who bought them all at once and then sadly suffered a terminal diagnosis before ever having a chance to use them and was liquidating his R/C airplane workshop. He sold me all three for six hundred bucks and a like-new Sakura scroll saw for another hundred. That package was beyond my budget, too, but I had a little cash stashed away from doing a model restoration job, so I was able to rationalize the seven hundred bucks I paid for the lot and hide the "bill of lading" from "the purser." I later added the Byrnes table saw sliding table, which is a really super accessory, too. That I bought from Byrnes for around a hundred and fifty dollars and worth every penny of that. Needless to say, I love these machines.

If I didn't get lucky and be able to score my Byrnes machines "used" at a huge savings, I'd still be using the Craftsman table saw, so I get what you're saying. I direct my encouragement to buy a Byrnes machine to those who are considering buying a similar machine new. The other machines may be less expensive, but not by much. The MicroLux table saw is three-hundred and fifty as compared with the Byrnes which I expect will be somewhere around four hundred and fifty new. Granted, the MicroLux has a tilting arbor, but that's not much use for ship modeling and, in terms of quality, power, and accuracy, there's just no comparison at all. My argument is that one is better off saving a little bit longer and investing in the state of the art professional level machine instead of the "hobbyist" level machine. If, on the other hand, one can see no hope in ever affording a Byrnes saw, and they can pick up a used Proxxon, MicroLux, Dremel, or Jarmac for fifty or seventy-five dollars, I completely understand why they'd buy one of those used instead. Generally speaking, though, the maxim that it is always best to buy the best tool you can possibly afford is true. In the end, the cheapest tool is the one you don't have to buy twice.

Sorry to hear of the untimely death of your Unimat motor. Yes, as you now know, the early ones were "intermittent duty" and could only be run for eight minutes continuously before you were supposed to turn them off and let them cool off for another eight minutes. The later Unimat DB/SL's came equipped with "continuous duty" motors. The good news, if you aren't aware, is that the original "intermittent duty" motors can be found on eBay for around a hundred and fifty dollars and the newer "continuous duty" Unimat DB/SL motors can be had on eBay for around two hundred and fifty bucks.

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I was able to obtain a replacement motor. This discussion has my imagination activated.
Motors!
I built my own drum sander. I used a Dayton 1/3 HP 1700 rpm capacitor TEFC CW/CCW.
I have an old thickness sander made from NRG plans from long ago. The motor is under the bed in a box - no air flow - getting also full of sawdust it died 40 years or so was not bad. I contacted Granger about their motor rec. It was:
Dayton 1/2 HP 1700 rpm split phase TEFC CW only (I do not want a ballista)
The Granger agent said that a capacitor start is for a situation where instant rated rpm is necessary. This is not a factor important for a woodworking machine. It takes me longer to manipulate the stock than the windup time. The addition of a capacitor just increases cost and adds something else to burnout.
If I lost the use of my current Unimat motor - I am having the idea that a different, larger, same rpm motor - or pulley diameter adjustment. I would need a larger 1x base or scab-on a wing for the motor.

The rubber belts embrittle fairly quickly. The red plastic belts use a glue with a short half-life. I think that I have found a better solution. The green polyurethane - various diameters - joined using an alcohol lamp flame to melt the two meeting ends.
This stuff seems a lot more robust than rubber or whatever the red stuff is. The melting part requires practice (or dumb luck).

Jim's machines use capacitor start motors. I am thinking that split phase would do.

 

[Roger Pellett]

There is a guy nearby who builds wood canvas canoes. To those unfamiliar, people also call them Old Town type canoes. He mills all of his own wood; mostly Northern White Cedar.

The tool that he was willing to pay big bucks for? A SawStop table saw. If he loses a finger it threatens his livelihood. I bought the 10” Delta Table Saw that it replaced plus a trailer to haul it home for $150. It gets much more use than my Byrnes saw.

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

If I lost the use of my current Unimat motor - I am having the idea that a different, larger, same rpm motor - or pulley diameter adjustment. I would need a larger 1x base or scab-on a wing for the motor.

I think the issue with the Unimat motor replacements is that the motor has to bolt to the pulley "banjo" directly and getting a motor to fit is problematic. If the motor isn't the same size and mounts the same as the factory original, it usually gets in the way of something else on the machine. (As it is, the scroll saw attachment and perhaps the table saw require the headstock riser to achieve clearance for operation.) A cobbed-on motor mount would probably cost you the ability to use the motor on the milling post. Anyway, i didn't follow those discussions online because I didn't need another motor at that point.

I got my Unimat given to me with an intermittent duty 220 VAC 50hz British mains motor. I swapped that out for the new continuous duty motor on eBay, which cost me $185 a few years ago. So much for "free" tools! I kept the 220 VAC motor and can use it running on my 220 VAC 60hz that I pull off my 440 VAC 3-phase panel in my shop, or off 120 VAC 60 hz, which turns it at approximately half-speed for slow work and shouldn't cause it to heat up so much. (I don't have the slow-speed Unimat "banjo" accessory. They had tons of accessories, but all are much too expensive on the second-hand collector's market these days. I don't know why somebody hasn't cloned the DB/SL's and their accessories and made a bundle on it. Where are the Chinese when you need them?) There are guys on the internet selling sewing machine and treadmill motors converted to bolt onto the DB/SL pulley banjo. Some of these have variable speed control pots on them, too.

I bought some of those neoprene (?) O-rings that fit as belts for the Unimat and I haven't had any problem with them. I know guys have had fits trying to melt those plastic ones together, though. The O-rings are pretty touch and sold regularly on eBay. Interestingly, the very early Unimat DB/SL's used a length of cord worked into a single-pass, multiple-bight Turk's head of the necessary circumference as the motor belt. A lot of the old machines you see online still have them, so I guess they last a good long time. If the O-rings I have break, I'll give the Turk's head hack a try before spend money on more O-rings.

 

[Bob Cleek]

The tool that he was willing to pay big bucks for? A SawStop table saw. If he loses a finger it threatens his livelihood. I bought the 10” Delta Table Saw that it replaced plus a trailer to haul it home for $150. It gets much more use than my Byrnes saw.

Now that sounds like a great used tool deal! Was it the Delta Unisaw or the contractor's model? If it's the contractor's saw, you got it for a real steal. If it's the Unisaw, you might even get arrested! I just love a good tool score story!

I like the SawStop in theory, but they are hugely expensive to begin with and when they stop themselves, they destroy the "brake stop" on their arbor mechanism. This is the sacrificial mechanism that stops the saw and must be replaced when the saw stops itself. They run around a hundred bucks each and more for the one you must use if you're using a dado blade set, so don't expect to be impressing your friends running hot dogs into the blade like they do on the advertising videos! They work on the principle of sensitivity to moisture, i.e. blood. Of course, if you try to saw green wood with one, reports are the machine often thinks it's a finger and slams on the brakes. As a result, they haven't been as popular with boat builders and other types that work green wood for heat bending. I'd be interested in knowing if he was cutting green bending stock for canoes with it and if it worked for cutting it.

In the meantime, I treat my table saws like onery rattlesnakes. Some say, "Never reach over the blade." I never reach over the table! I never stand in line with the blade. I've got quite a collection of push sticks and all my fingers... knock on wood.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I think the issue with the Unimat motor replacements is that the motor has to bolt to the pulley "banjo" directly and getting a motor to fit is problematic. If the motor isn't the same size and mounts the same as the factory original, it usually gets in the way of something else on the machine. (As it is, the scroll saw attachment and perhaps the table saw require the headstock riser to achieve clearance for operation.) A cobbed-on motor mount would probably cost you the ability to use the motor on the milling post.

Yes. I see that. The woodworking accessories that were part of the Unimat repertoire in my collection have all been superseded by more capable stand alone machines. Way back when, there were no model size machines. The lathe and the mill are what I need from it now. For the mill, I even bought a surplus cast Al base. The deal is to hacksaw the post mount off and fix it halfway down the ways. The side mount allows much more movement under the motor. I have not been able to convince myself to destroy the base. I think that I will use my Eurotool DRL-300.00 clone benchtop drill press as a wood mill for deck beams and deck furniture. I think that the quill should stand up to the lateral force if the bit is sharp and the cuts shallow - it has an XY table. Table cost as much as the machine.

Some of these have variable speed control pots on them, too.

I am a bit compulsive about doing armchair experiments / thought experiments:

Back when it appeared that Model Machines was over, I was thinking of ways to replace an imagined failed Jim machine motor. My mind substituted Unimat with Jim machine. It would still work for a stand alone lathe.

I have been giving my Foredom TX with the reciprocating chisel hand piece a heavy workout. That requires a down speed adjustment with the speed control. I have a 3rd party hand piece that mounts 1/4" shafts. Speed control + Unimat banjo - there is probably a very difficult way to attach a Foredom hand piece. StewMac has a hand piece with a thread that fits a router base(s). There is also a bar with threaded holes that clamps in a vise - one end 90 degrees and the other 45 degrees. This allows for a fixed bit - 0 - 45 - 90.
It is a collet tip, so ~ 1/8" shat max? A lathe can turn a motor pulley shaft to the needed end diameter. A potential way to adapt a motor that I already have.

very early Unimat DB/SL's used a length of cord worked into a single-pass, multiple-bight Turk's head of the necessary circumference as the motor belt.

Had them i.e. the black twisted rubber belt in stock. The necessary stretch to fit had them shatter. The on-line red belting/cord that I bought has a glued end to end. The glue is months not decades for its bond under constant stress. There is a melt join: a belt welder--- some kind of soldering iron flat sheet - heat/ retract/ quickly push melted ends together action. $160 - Not cost effective unless used to make commercial stock for sale on-line. Takes three hands without the device. I have only two. The alcohol lamp only needs two hands. Finding the optimal spot in the flame takes practice. I think the red tubing really dislikes a flame. The green polyurethane belting melted together -beginners luck. It does seem to hold up under stress.

 

[RussF]

They work on the principle of sensitivity to moisture, i.e. blood.

Sorry Bob, I hate to disagree with you, but the SawStop doesn't sense moisture. We have four of them in our shop. From the SawStop web site:

At the most basic level, our technology works by continually monitoring a small electrical signal in the saw blade. The human body is conductive so the signal in the saw blade changes when skin makes contact with it. It’s that change to the signal that activates the AIM safety system and engages the aluminum brake.

The reason that green, i.e. excessively moist wood may kick the saw is because moisture is conductive, and that signal generated by the saw is conducted through the wet wood directly to you. You can think of it as working similarly to a touch switch on a lamp - not exactly, but same principle.

Before we got the SawStops, we would routinely cut aluminum parts on the table saws. That doesn't work on a SawStop - not because it is wet, but because it is conductive.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

from comments here on the forum about scratch building there was a point counter point.
point the investment cost in tools to scratch build is expensive
counter point you do not need expensive tools to scratch built
so which is it?

My argument is that one is better off saving a little bit longer and investing in the state of the art professional level machine instead of the "hobbyist" level machine.

but why? if 99% here are hobby level kit builders why buy "professional level machines"

another point i hear about is the accuracy of these expensive power tools again who is building hobby kits to the accuracy of .0005 thousandths of an inch?

years ago, Sherline tools were all the rage in this hobby. Comments like I bought a Sherline 5400 Deluxe Vertical Milling Machine for $1,300.00 or a Klutch Mini Milling Machine for $900.00 now i can mill perfect joinery. I can do the same with a knife and machine vice for $50.00

The model builders i know and knew personally had only simple basic power tool and handmade tools. So, in my opinion selling high price tools to hobby builders is like selling a military grade grenade launcher for rabbit hunting. Yes, these high price tools are nothing more than just a luxury but not a necessity, far cheaper tools for this hobby work just fine.