Byrnes Model Machines News

[Roger Pellett]

Contractors saw with table extensions.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Dave, I like your comment about "its not the tools, but the person using them" that makes the biggest difference in quality of work produced.

I am still learning a lot of basic stuff, but mostly it just takes time to learn to be a quality builder, not just buying quality tools, you still have to know how to do the work.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

Dave, I like your comment about "its not the tools, but the person using them" that makes the biggest difference in quality of work produced.

I am still learning a lot of basic stuff, but mostly it just takes time to learn to be a quality builder, not just buying quality tools, you still have to know how to do the work.

a woodworker once told me the best tools i have are my hands and simple tools.

if a scratch builder builds using expensive precision tools CNC milled joinery, 3D printing, laser cut parts to within .006 thousandths expensive accurate table saws etc then can you say you scratch built the model or is it scratch built by machine?

personally, i mill down my material with big woodworking machines and if i can get within .015 thousandths that is good enough. The actual model building is by hand. So if hobby tools can cut within a range of + or - of .015 to .020 that should be good enough.

working with hand tools or tools that are cheaper and less accurate challenges the builder to slow down, pay attention to the finer details, understand the wood feel the cut and strive for a level of craftsmanship that goes beyond just machining parts.

the admiralty models were not built with a thousand $$ CNC mill or a $600 table saw so fine craftsmanship can be done with inexpensive tools and hand tools.

if 99% of members here are kit builders what do you need expensive tools for? all the pieces and parts are in the box!

 

[RussF]

Yes, these high price tools are nothing more than just a luxury but not a necessity, far cheaper tools for this hobby work just fine.

a woodworker once told me the best tools i have are my hands and simple tools.

You are absolutely correct. However, let's look at it from another perspective.

A number of members on this forum have Porsches. Why? You can certainly get from point A to point B in a 1963 Rambler. In fact, you don't even need a car - how about a bicycle or, for that matter, walking. So why own a Porsche? Because they can.

In the summertime, I have about 3-1/2 acres to mow. Could I do it with a non-motorized reel-type push mower. Sure, heck, I could do it with hedge shears if I wanted to. I chose to purchase a lawn tractor with a 60" mower deck - for one, because I value my time and my back - and for another, because I could.

While every single thing we do can be done without a single powered tool, if you have the means to ease the burden of mundane, repetitive work by purchasing a tool, I say, go for it. It's not about what is right or wrong, it's about what works for you and what you can comfortably afford.

One thing, though, that I've learned throughout the years, is that if you are going to buy a tool, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Cheap tools will only frustrate you and will have to be replaced so often that you would usually have spent less money on one quality tool over replacing a cheap tool over and over.

I once bought a "bargain" bench plane for $39.00. I spent days trying to tune it so that it was at least usable. The plane iron would hold an edge for about 3 passes before requiring resharpening and resetting. The whole thing was so poorly made that I never could get it to stop chattering, no matter what I tried. Then, I spent $300.00 on a Lie-Nielsen and it cut like butter right out of the box. I can plane several hundred surface feet of wood before it needs sharpening.

So - to answer your first point above - "far cheaper tools" do not always work just fine - even if it is only a hobby.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

A number of members on this forum have Porsches. Why? You can certainly get from point A to point B in a 1963 Rambler. In fact, you don't even need a car - how about a bicycle or, for that matter, walking. So why own a Porsche? Because they can.

that is true but i do not think some of these tools should be recommended as "you got to have this" if you want to build model ships. It is a matter of personal point of view i think a Corvette was a dumb idea to me because you cannot haul lumber in it, can't take the family out in it, expensive to maintain i cannot go to Home Depot and load it up with 10 bags of cement.
been there done that For sale to buy something practical. i would rather be seen driving a beater pickup truck that is useful than the vet




In the summertime, I have about 3-1/2 acres to mow. Could I do it with a non-motorized reel-type push mower. Sure, heck, I could do it with hedge shears if I wanted to. I chose to purchase a lawn tractor with a 60" mower deck - for one, because I value my time and my back - and for another, because I could.

but a hobby is a past time something to relax with. There is no rush to get it done, It IS your time to indulge to take the time. it is a Zen moment.

While every single thing we do can be done without a single powered tool, if you have the means to ease the burden of mundane, repetitive work by purchasing a tool, I say, go for it.

if you feel your hobby is mundane and repetitive you should find something that inspires you. Not to look for ways to hurry the process. Once again it is a moment of Zen when time stands still. Ever notice when you are totally in the zone immersed in what your doing you do not realize how much time has passed.

So - to answer your first point above - "far cheaper tools" do not always work just fine - even if it is only a hobby.

and sometimes they do, my cheap Jarmac is 35 years old and still working just fine and well within the tolerances for model building.

but your point is well taken "because you can" and it fits your personal style and what you can afford

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

i am not questioning the quality of the machines or if they are worth the cost. i am questioning does the average hobby kit builder really need them or for that matter a hobby level scratch builder.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Sorry Bob, I hate to disagree with you, but the SawStop doesn't sense moisture. We have four of them in our shop. From the SawStop web site:

My bad! To put a finer point on it, the SawStop senses electrical conductivity, which is a property of a number of things. Moisture and metals are two of the the conductive things the SawStop senses. It doesn't sense skin, per se, but rather the moisture on the skin. Skin, absent moisture, i.e. leather, isn't electrically conductive.

Skin conductance, also known as electrodermal activity (EDA) or galvanic skin response (GSR), is the property of the human body that causes continuous variation in the electrical characteristics of the skin. This variation is due to the activation of sweat glands, which are controlled by the autonomic nervous system. When the sympathetic nervous system is highly aroused, it leads to increased sweat gland activity, which in turn increases skin conductivity. This phenomenon is often used to measure emotional and sympathetic responses.​

Electrodermal activity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

the admiralty models were not built with a thousand $$ CNC mill or a $600 table saw so fine craftsmanship can be done with inexpensive tools and hand tools.

They (17C) were probably built by a team of men with individual specialty skills. I also think that most of the mundane work was done by what is now interns. I think that they got their Buxus and Pyrus from coach and royal carriage shops. Every day for them, scarce for us.

i do not think some of these tools should be recommended as "you got to have this" if you want to build model ships. It is a matter of personal point of view

It is usually meant as being enthusiastic opinion. This - especially scratch - is a fairly lonely and solitary exercise. Finding others with a similar interest in sophisticated tools makes for a fun and interesting discussion. Including all of the conditions and factors for someone who is not already there would make for awkward and pedantic discourse.
The doorway into any of these tool discussions needs a sign that says:" If you have to ask, you do not need the tool. You are not ready yet, if ever."

years ago, Sherline tools were all the rage in this hobby. Comments like I bought a Sherline 5400 Deluxe Vertical Milling Machine for $1,300.00 or a Klutch Mini Milling Machine for $900.00 now i can mill perfect joinery.

I believe that this is still pretty much a fad at MSW. Silly and way overdone. To my way of thinking a lathe and a mill are tools for working metal - mostly steel or Aluminum. They are tools used to make other tools. They are necessary for this. They are also tools looking for a job when it comes to miniature scale woodworking.
Only turning your cannon (brass or wood) , blocks can be automated a bit, a thing for those obsessed with being maximally self-reliant.
Spars are probably best made using a froe, a sharp hand plane, and an electric drill with speed control and fixed in a horizontal mount.

Longridge made a deal about using a Midget Universal machine make build hid Victory 1805 model. In the early 70's his machine was no longer available. The closest thing was a Unimat with a serious variety of woodworking attachments. There were no other model machines then. If it was just for the mill and the lathe (neato and super cool as they are) I would not have considered the purchase.

these high price tools are nothing more than just a luxury but not a necessity, far cheaper tools for this hobby work just fine.

As I said: If you have to ask... The admitting factors are an appreciation of quality tools for what they are, the freedom and resources to indulge in their purchase.
There are tools where the extra cost for a quality tool is cost effective. Some of them preserve sanity from being frustrated by using cheap pseudo versions that fight you all the way. The trick is being able to determine where quality is vital and where junk will do.

 

[Roger Pellett]

When I ventured out on my own, and was not living close to home where I could use my father’s tools I began to buy my own. My first major purchase was a set of Craftsman socket wrenches to keep my $250 1958 Chevy running. I have been buying tools eve since. Not just for building ship models but for me, because building things is a way of life. My son seems to be a builder too but when he was of age when he should have been learning how to use hand tools he was not interested.

The old solid hull models did require a reasonable set of hand tools and the knowledge to use them. Although I have never built one, the highly engineered POB kits would appear to require just a basic tool kit. Why anyone assembling these kits would wish to invest in one or more of the “big three” Byrnes Products is beyond me.

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

The woodworking accessories that were part of the Unimat repertoire in my collection have all been superseded by more capable stand alone machines.

If you haven't checked eBay lately to see the prices people are getting for those Unimat DB/SL woodworking attachments, particularly the table and jigsaw, I think you'll be surprised. You may even be able to "deaccession" some of your no longer needed Unimat attachments for the price of a new Jim saw!

I have a 3rd party hand piece that mounts 1/4" shafts. Speed control + Unimat banjo - there is probably a very difficult way to attach a Foredom hand piece. StewMac has a hand piece with a thread that fits a router base(s). There is also a bar with threaded holes that clamps in a vise - one end 90 degrees and the other 45 degrees. This allows for a fixed bit - 0 - 45 - 90.

Not sure where you're going with this description. I recently bought a tool holder for my Atlas/Craftsman 12"x42" lathe which holds a Dremel Mototool threaded into it. The holder mounts on the cross-slide like any other tool holder.
Dremel mototool mounting in quick change tool post:

Alisam Metal Lathe Tool Accessories Dremel or Moto-Tool Holders

Utilize your Dremel or Moto-Tool on your metal lathe and precisely control its movement

alisam.com

Tool holder for Foredom 1' diameter handpiece:

Alisam Engineering Fordeom Tool Holder

Tool holder for a 1 inch OD Foredom handpiece or any 1 inch OD flex shaft tool handpiece

alisam.com

 

[Loracs]

Are the big three Byrnes tools required or even needed, likely not. Are they of high quality and precision? yes, they are likely to be the best for modeling. If a modeler has the inclination to make parts (scratch build and/or improvement on kits), why not? This is a hobby, and the overall cost is nothing compared to the enjoyment you get out of it. I wish I had the space.

At the end, we are all having an inclination to build, building for fun, not struggling with poor instruments. I started on the cheap in almost anything and guess what? I'm slowly replacing everything with the highest quality tools I can find. Not regretting it so far... it allows us to focus on developing our skills and... enjoy the process along the way. So... you have the space, the money and the urge to use those tools, I say go for it.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

i.e. excessively moist wood may kick the saw is because moisture is conductive, and that signal generated by the saw is conducted through the wet wood directly to you. You can think of it as working similarly to a touch switch on a lamp - not exactly, but same principle.

Before we got the SawStops, we would routinely cut aluminum parts on the table saws. That doesn't work on a SawStop - not because it is wet, but because it is conductive.

Would wearing thick rubber gloves - hazmat type - H2SO4 resistant type - allow you to cut Al? Would wearing them also negate any safety factor provided by a SawStop?

I see my Ryobi BT3000 as a monster lurking for a chance to eat my fingers.