Byrnes Model Machines News

[Roger Pellett]

Contractors saw with table extensions.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Dave, I like your comment about "its not the tools, but the person using them" that makes the biggest difference in quality of work produced.

I am still learning a lot of basic stuff, but mostly it just takes time to learn to be a quality builder, not just buying quality tools, you still have to know how to do the work.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

Dave, I like your comment about "its not the tools, but the person using them" that makes the biggest difference in quality of work produced.

I am still learning a lot of basic stuff, but mostly it just takes time to learn to be a quality builder, not just buying quality tools, you still have to know how to do the work.

a woodworker once told me the best tools i have are my hands and simple tools.

if a scratch builder builds using expensive precision tools CNC milled joinery, 3D printing, laser cut parts to within .006 thousandths expensive accurate table saws etc then can you say you scratch built the model or is it scratch built by machine?

personally, i mill down my material with big woodworking machines and if i can get within .015 thousandths that is good enough. The actual model building is by hand. So if hobby tools can cut within a range of + or - of .015 to .020 that should be good enough.

working with hand tools or tools that are cheaper and less accurate challenges the builder to slow down, pay attention to the finer details, understand the wood feel the cut and strive for a level of craftsmanship that goes beyond just machining parts.

the admiralty models were not built with a thousand $$ CNC mill or a $600 table saw so fine craftsmanship can be done with inexpensive tools and hand tools.

if 99% of members here are kit builders what do you need expensive tools for? all the pieces and parts are in the box!

 

[RussF]

Yes, these high price tools are nothing more than just a luxury but not a necessity, far cheaper tools for this hobby work just fine.

a woodworker once told me the best tools i have are my hands and simple tools.

You are absolutely correct. However, let's look at it from another perspective.

A number of members on this forum have Porsches. Why? You can certainly get from point A to point B in a 1963 Rambler. In fact, you don't even need a car - how about a bicycle or, for that matter, walking. So why own a Porsche? Because they can.

In the summertime, I have about 3-1/2 acres to mow. Could I do it with a non-motorized reel-type push mower. Sure, heck, I could do it with hedge shears if I wanted to. I chose to purchase a lawn tractor with a 60" mower deck - for one, because I value my time and my back - and for another, because I could.

While every single thing we do can be done without a single powered tool, if you have the means to ease the burden of mundane, repetitive work by purchasing a tool, I say, go for it. It's not about what is right or wrong, it's about what works for you and what you can comfortably afford.

One thing, though, that I've learned throughout the years, is that if you are going to buy a tool, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Cheap tools will only frustrate you and will have to be replaced so often that you would usually have spent less money on one quality tool over replacing a cheap tool over and over.

I once bought a "bargain" bench plane for $39.00. I spent days trying to tune it so that it was at least usable. The plane iron would hold an edge for about 3 passes before requiring resharpening and resetting. The whole thing was so poorly made that I never could get it to stop chattering, no matter what I tried. Then, I spent $300.00 on a Lie-Nielsen and it cut like butter right out of the box. I can plane several hundred surface feet of wood before it needs sharpening.

So - to answer your first point above - "far cheaper tools" do not always work just fine - even if it is only a hobby.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

A number of members on this forum have Porsches. Why? You can certainly get from point A to point B in a 1963 Rambler. In fact, you don't even need a car - how about a bicycle or, for that matter, walking. So why own a Porsche? Because they can.

that is true but i do not think some of these tools should be recommended as "you got to have this" if you want to build model ships. It is a matter of personal point of view i think a Corvette was a dumb idea to me because you cannot haul lumber in it, can't take the family out in it, expensive to maintain i cannot go to Home Depot and load it up with 10 bags of cement.
been there done that For sale to buy something practical. i would rather be seen driving a beater pickup truck that is useful than the vet




In the summertime, I have about 3-1/2 acres to mow. Could I do it with a non-motorized reel-type push mower. Sure, heck, I could do it with hedge shears if I wanted to. I chose to purchase a lawn tractor with a 60" mower deck - for one, because I value my time and my back - and for another, because I could.

but a hobby is a past time something to relax with. There is no rush to get it done, It IS your time to indulge to take the time. it is a Zen moment.

While every single thing we do can be done without a single powered tool, if you have the means to ease the burden of mundane, repetitive work by purchasing a tool, I say, go for it.

if you feel your hobby is mundane and repetitive you should find something that inspires you. Not to look for ways to hurry the process. Once again it is a moment of Zen when time stands still. Ever notice when you are totally in the zone immersed in what your doing you do not realize how much time has passed.

So - to answer your first point above - "far cheaper tools" do not always work just fine - even if it is only a hobby.

and sometimes they do, my cheap Jarmac is 35 years old and still working just fine and well within the tolerances for model building.

but your point is well taken "because you can" and it fits your personal style and what you can afford

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

i am not questioning the quality of the machines or if they are worth the cost. i am questioning does the average hobby kit builder really need them or for that matter a hobby level scratch builder.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Sorry Bob, I hate to disagree with you, but the SawStop doesn't sense moisture. We have four of them in our shop. From the SawStop web site:

My bad! To put a finer point on it, the SawStop senses electrical conductivity, which is a property of a number of things. Moisture and metals are two of the the conductive things the SawStop senses. It doesn't sense skin, per se, but rather the moisture on the skin. Skin, absent moisture, i.e. leather, isn't electrically conductive.

Skin conductance, also known as electrodermal activity (EDA) or galvanic skin response (GSR), is the property of the human body that causes continuous variation in the electrical characteristics of the skin. This variation is due to the activation of sweat glands, which are controlled by the autonomic nervous system. When the sympathetic nervous system is highly aroused, it leads to increased sweat gland activity, which in turn increases skin conductivity. This phenomenon is often used to measure emotional and sympathetic responses.​

Electrodermal activity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

the admiralty models were not built with a thousand $$ CNC mill or a $600 table saw so fine craftsmanship can be done with inexpensive tools and hand tools.

They (17C) were probably built by a team of men with individual specialty skills. I also think that most of the mundane work was done by what is now interns. I think that they got their Buxus and Pyrus from coach and royal carriage shops. Every day for them, scarce for us.

i do not think some of these tools should be recommended as "you got to have this" if you want to build model ships. It is a matter of personal point of view

It is usually meant as being enthusiastic opinion. This - especially scratch - is a fairly lonely and solitary exercise. Finding others with a similar interest in sophisticated tools makes for a fun and interesting discussion. Including all of the conditions and factors for someone who is not already there would make for awkward and pedantic discourse.
The doorway into any of these tool discussions needs a sign that says:" If you have to ask, you do not need the tool. You are not ready yet, if ever."

years ago, Sherline tools were all the rage in this hobby. Comments like I bought a Sherline 5400 Deluxe Vertical Milling Machine for $1,300.00 or a Klutch Mini Milling Machine for $900.00 now i can mill perfect joinery.

I believe that this is still pretty much a fad at MSW. Silly and way overdone. To my way of thinking a lathe and a mill are tools for working metal - mostly steel or Aluminum. They are tools used to make other tools. They are necessary for this. They are also tools looking for a job when it comes to miniature scale woodworking.
Only turning your cannon (brass or wood) , blocks can be automated a bit, a thing for those obsessed with being maximally self-reliant.
Spars are probably best made using a froe, a sharp hand plane, and an electric drill with speed control and fixed in a horizontal mount.

Longridge made a deal about using a Midget Universal machine make build hid Victory 1805 model. In the early 70's his machine was no longer available. The closest thing was a Unimat with a serious variety of woodworking attachments. There were no other model machines then. If it was just for the mill and the lathe (neato and super cool as they are) I would not have considered the purchase.

these high price tools are nothing more than just a luxury but not a necessity, far cheaper tools for this hobby work just fine.

As I said: If you have to ask... The admitting factors are an appreciation of quality tools for what they are, the freedom and resources to indulge in their purchase.
There are tools where the extra cost for a quality tool is cost effective. Some of them preserve sanity from being frustrated by using cheap pseudo versions that fight you all the way. The trick is being able to determine where quality is vital and where junk will do.

 

[Roger Pellett]

When I ventured out on my own, and was not living close to home where I could use my father’s tools I began to buy my own. My first major purchase was a set of Craftsman socket wrenches to keep my $250 1958 Chevy running. I have been buying tools eve since. Not just for building ship models but for me, because building things is a way of life. My son seems to be a builder too but when he was of age when he should have been learning how to use hand tools he was not interested.

The old solid hull models did require a reasonable set of hand tools and the knowledge to use them. Although I have never built one, the highly engineered POB kits would appear to require just a basic tool kit. Why anyone assembling these kits would wish to invest in one or more of the “big three” Byrnes Products is beyond me.

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

The woodworking accessories that were part of the Unimat repertoire in my collection have all been superseded by more capable stand alone machines.

If you haven't checked eBay lately to see the prices people are getting for those Unimat DB/SL woodworking attachments, particularly the table and jigsaw, I think you'll be surprised. You may even be able to "deaccession" some of your no longer needed Unimat attachments for the price of a new Jim saw!

I have a 3rd party hand piece that mounts 1/4" shafts. Speed control + Unimat banjo - there is probably a very difficult way to attach a Foredom hand piece. StewMac has a hand piece with a thread that fits a router base(s). There is also a bar with threaded holes that clamps in a vise - one end 90 degrees and the other 45 degrees. This allows for a fixed bit - 0 - 45 - 90.

Not sure where you're going with this description. I recently bought a tool holder for my Atlas/Craftsman 12"x42" lathe which holds a Dremel Mototool threaded into it. The holder mounts on the cross-slide like any other tool holder.
Dremel mototool mounting in quick change tool post:

Alisam Metal Lathe Tool Accessories Dremel or Moto-Tool Holders

Utilize your Dremel or Moto-Tool on your metal lathe and precisely control its movement

alisam.com

Tool holder for Foredom 1' diameter handpiece:

Alisam Engineering Fordeom Tool Holder

Tool holder for a 1 inch OD Foredom handpiece or any 1 inch OD flex shaft tool handpiece

alisam.com

 

[Loracs]

Are the big three Byrnes tools required or even needed, likely not. Are they of high quality and precision? yes, they are likely to be the best for modeling. If a modeler has the inclination to make parts (scratch build and/or improvement on kits), why not? This is a hobby, and the overall cost is nothing compared to the enjoyment you get out of it. I wish I had the space.

At the end, we are all having an inclination to build, building for fun, not struggling with poor instruments. I started on the cheap in almost anything and guess what? I'm slowly replacing everything with the highest quality tools I can find. Not regretting it so far... it allows us to focus on developing our skills and... enjoy the process along the way. So... you have the space, the money and the urge to use those tools, I say go for it.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

i.e. excessively moist wood may kick the saw is because moisture is conductive, and that signal generated by the saw is conducted through the wet wood directly to you. You can think of it as working similarly to a touch switch on a lamp - not exactly, but same principle.

Before we got the SawStops, we would routinely cut aluminum parts on the table saws. That doesn't work on a SawStop - not because it is wet, but because it is conductive.

Would wearing thick rubber gloves - hazmat type - H2SO4 resistant type - allow you to cut Al? Would wearing them also negate any safety factor provided by a SawStop?

I see my Ryobi BT3000 as a monster lurking for a chance to eat my fingers.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Not sure where you're going with this description. I recently bought a tool holder for my Atlas/Craftsman 12"x42" lathe which holds a Dremel Mototool threaded into it. The holder mounts on the cross-slide like any other tool holder.

What I am proposing is that a Foredom flex shaft motor can be used as the motor for the Unimat. It is a matter of getting a different mount for the motor pulley on the banjo. Now, the pulley is on one side and the motor is on the other.
This is all theory, my present motor runs OK I think. No test is contemplated. Able belts are a different factor.

 

[Jwallkc]

from comments here on the forum about scratch building there was a point counter point.
point the investment cost in tools to scratch build is expensive
counter point you do not need expensive tools to scratch built
so which is it?

My argument is that one is better off saving a little bit longer and investing in the state of the art professional level machine instead of the "hobbyist" level machine.

but why? if 99% here are hobby level kit builders why buy "professional level machines"

another point i hear about is the accuracy of these expensive power tools again who is building hobby kits to the accuracy of .0005 thousandths of an inch?

years ago, Sherline tools were all the rage in this hobby. Comments like I bought a Sherline 5400 Deluxe Vertical Milling Machine for $1,300.00 or a Klutch Mini Milling Machine for $900.00 now i can mill perfect joinery. I can do the same with a knife and machine vice for $50.00

The model builders i know and knew personally had only simple basic power tool and handmade tools. So, in my opinion selling high price tools to hobby builders is like selling a military grade grenade launcher for rabbit hunting. Yes, these high price tools are nothing more than just a luxury but not a necessity, far cheaper tools for this hobby work just fine.

Hey Dave did you walk to school barefoot in the snow uphill both ways too? Hahaha

 

[Bob Cleek]

point the investment cost in tools to scratch build is expensive
counter point you do not need expensive tools to scratch built
so which is it?

It's not at all an "either/or" thing. The investment cost in tools to scratch-build need not cost anything more than what minimal tools one might require building a kit. On the other hand, one can spend as much as they want on tools for kit or scratch-building models.

Point: The investment cost in tools required to build ship models, kit or scratch, is not expensive.
Counter point: ... There is none.

Point: Some ship modelers spend a lot of money on ship modeling tools.
Counter point: So what? Nobody's holding a gun to your head to do the same.

My argument is that one is better off saving a little bit longer and investing in the state-of-the-art professional level machine instead of the "hobbyist" level machine.
but why? if 99% here are hobby level kit builders why buy "professional level machines"

My use of the adjective "professional" appears to have been imprudent. How about we substitute "professional level machines" for "top quality machines?" You see, what I was trying to say there was addressed to "anybody in the power tool market..." not to everybody who builds ship models:

No, they aren't cheap, but they are more than fairly priced for what they are. They are simply the finest built, most highly accurate small woodworking machines of their kind, bar none. There have been adequate small table saws and sanders marketed in the past and a few still are now. All were and are "hobby" machines that lacked the power, quality of construction, and the dependable accuracy of the Byrnes machines. Given the relative price points, anybody in the power tool market for a micro-table saw, or thickness or disk sander would be nuts to buy anything but the Byrnes tools because, although the alternatives cost less, the quality and performance differences make the Byrnes tools a far better buy. You do get what you pay for.

I was not intending to suggest that anybody has to buy a power tool at all. Rather, recognizing that many do, I suggested that paying more for a Byrnes machine was a wise expenditure because the buyer gets a lot more bang for his buck. Don't "professionals" and "hobbyists" value their money the same? The principle I rely upon is generally true for any tool: "Never buy a tool until you need it and when you do, buy the best tool you can afford." The only exception to this rule is if it's some sort of tool that you aren't planning to use more than a few times and never again or consider disposable. A high-quality tool should outlast the craftsman and hold the highest possible resale value if and when it is sold on the used market all while maintaining its ability to do the finest work possible for its intended purpose. The appreciation of fine tools is the mark of a fine craftsman.

another point i hear about is the accuracy of these expensive power tools again who is building hobby kits to the accuracy of .0005 thousandths of an inch?

years ago, Sherline tools were all the rage in this hobby. Comments like I bought a Sherline 5400 Deluxe Vertical Milling Machine for $1,300.00 or a Klutch Mini Milling Machine for $900.00 now i can mill perfect joinery. I can do the same with a knife and machine vice for $50.00

Probably nobody is building hobby kits to a tolerance of +/- .0005". However, the accuracy tolerance of a precision machine tool is the benchmark of any machine tool's overall quality. (The general machine tool equation is "mass equals accuracy.") If one only wants a machine with a tolerance of +/- .01", why buy one made of plastic and tinplate with a cheaply made motor that will fall apart in a relatively short while just for the sake of paying $400 instead of $500? When one is through with the $500 machine, they can expect to get that "extra" $100 they paid for it back when they sell it to the next user because the Byrnes saw is going to sell used for far more than $100 over what a used "hobby" mini-saw will ever bring.

Another point on machine tool tolerance and capacity limitations that should not be overlooked is that if one buys only what they need at the moment in terms of tolerances and capacities, the odds are extremely good that they will exceed the limits of such a machine as their skill and ambition develop and increase. Therefore, it is also wise to buy the machine which has the tightest tolerances and capacities you can afford, as well. Like buying children's clothes, there's wisdom in buying power tools a bit larger than they need to be at the moment.

I never understood the "milling machine for woodworking joinery fetish," either. That said, I think if one were interested in buying a milling machine for ship modeling, the same principles apply. Determine whether the additional amount paid for the top-quality machine is the better buy in the end. Myself, although I have milling abilities on my 12"x42" machinist's lathe, my Unimat DB/SL, and on my old cast iron Craftsman drill press with a milling collet adaptor on the quill and an XY table, I can't ever remember shaping wood on a milling machine. I mention the milling options I have because I've only paid money for the machinist's lathe, which I bought used, with all its tooling, from a retired machinist's widow for an obscenely low price I couldn't refuse, and the Vevor XY table that cost $95 retail. The XY table is adequate for the purposes I will ever use it, but, frankly, it's hardly in the "high-quality" category. It's a product of the Sum Ting Wong Patriotic Revolutionary People's Machine Tool Collective and required a good bit of fettling to get right. The moral of the story isn't that you have to always have the finest or most expensive tools, but you can often get high-quality tools at a huge savings by buying them used and, when you have to pay retail, you have to make your best judgment as to which compromise is the wisest.

I've got some nice tools, but they represent over fifty years now of scrounging and keeping an eye out for the opportunity to get a deal on the good stuff. I am a classic example of the guy who could never afford to run out and buy the best tool on the market. The moral of the story is that time, patience, and knowledge can replace a lot of money when you're buying stuff you don't really need but would like to have.

Just because guys talk about expensive tools for a job doesn't mean you can't get the job done without them, and just because quality tools are expensive doesn't mean you have to pay top dollar to acquire them over time, either.

 

[Bob Cleek]

The admitting factors are an appreciation of quality tools for what they are, the freedom and resources to indulge in their purchase.
There are tools where the extra cost for a quality tool is cost effective. Some of them preserve sanity from being frustrated by using cheap pseudo versions that fight you all the way. The trick is being able to determine where quality is vital and where junk will do.

That's it in a nutshell. Perhaps there should be a disclaimer on tool posts just like the "Cancer warnings" on everything sold in California. Something like:

ELITIST WARNING! This thread has been determined to contain material which may cause feelings of inferiority and inadequacy in humans.

I don't completely understand the reaction so many seem to have to tool discussions. I find them some of the most informative discussions of all. How else do people find out what tools are available, and which are worth the money, and which are a total waste of time and energy? Is it envy, or what? Do people on violin playing forums get their panties all in a bunch when somebody suggests it would be great to have a Stradivarius?

 

[Bob Cleek]

Dave, I like your comment about "its not the tools, but the person using them" that makes the biggest difference in quality of work produced.

I am still learning a lot of basic stuff, but mostly it just takes time to learn to be a quality builder, not just buying quality tools, you still have to know how to do the work.

The latter comment is very true: it's "not just buying quality tools, you still have to know how to do the work."

The former comment isn't entirely true, though. There is some work that simply cannot be done at all without the proper tools and some quality work which cannot be done beyond the limits of poor tools regardless of the craftsman's skill. To be sure, the skill of the craftsman is the prime determinant of the quality of the work, but there are many instances where quality work simply can't be done without quality tools. I can finish a model well enough that it will appear every bit as good as the best air brush job, but I cannot do that without a good brush, not to mention that the airbrush is a lot easier to clean than a brush.

A guy can have all the best tools and still not be a good craftsman, but it's not likely a good craftsman won't have all the best tools. In fact, the easiest way to learn which tools are the best is to look and see which tools the best craftsmen are using. There's rarely a lot of diversity in the tools the best craftsmen use. There's Snap-On and MAC Tools and then there's Harbor Freight.

So, if you want to be one of the best, you buy the best tools you can afford and work to be worthy of them. If you buy cheap tools, when your abilities come to exceed the limits of your tools, you're dead in the water until you buy the good ones you should have bought in the first place.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Now, back to the pulley belts:

Unimat seems to use 5mm dia. belting

Here is what is to be done:


I know that an alcohol lamp will do the melting. Old eyes do not always get a precise meeting.

Alternative technique:
start with a ~1" piece of glass tubing with a 6mm I.D.
Insert the two ends into the tubing.
Heat the glass in the flame.
When the melt occurs, push the ends together.
After it cools break the glass with a hammer.
Idiot proof? What could go wrong?

 

[Roger Pellett]

In the 1930’s and 1940’s Popular Mechanics and Mechanics Illustrated promoted ship modeling with serialized how to do articles for models of famous ships. Flying Cloud and Benjamin F. Packard come to mind. The construction technique was the now maligned solid hull method. Actually the models were made from lifts each cut to a different waterline shape with the resulting stack glued together.

These models could be and were built using only hand tools. Back then, most boys had learned how to use hand tools, either in a high school shop class or from their fathers. The lifts could be cut out with a coping saw and holes drilled with either a brace and bit or hand eggbeater drill. Shaping was done with chisels and a spokeshave. I still enjoy using these tools. Lead fittings were bought from various suppliers and if one was willing to spend the money, beautiful brass ones from A.J. Fisher.

Ship Models built from scratch or from kits were built this way into the 1970’s until the arrival of the initially crude POB kits. These mostly eliminated the need for skill with the old hand tools. Instead Xacto knives and razor saws and perhaps an aluminum miter box were sufficient. While the old solid hull models left builders to figure out for themselves how to proceed, the new POB kits now provided step by step instructions. POB model kits have been improved over the years and provide an easy entry to the hobby. Indeed, for builders of these kits expensive power tools are not necessary.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Why anyone assembling these kits would wish to invest in one or more of the “big three” Byrnes Products is beyond me.

I can't imagine why any kit builder in their right mind would want to own any of the "Byrnes Trifecta," either. They have no use for them, except perhaps the disk sander, but in the case of a kit build, it's very much overkill.

Why is it that people get exercised over recommendations for such tools which are obviously applicable only to those who 1. need them and 2. are willing to pay what they may cost? What don't they get about, "No, they're not essential. Yes, they cost money?"