Deck planking procedure

[Ted Robinson]

I don't know what wood is used for the ZHL San Felipe kit. It is extremely porous.
When testing stain colors and building a deck planking sample i found the stain bleeds through to the underside of the plank. When building the deck planking sample I found that both the PVA and CA glues bleed through to the surface.
I don't want the shiny surface created by the CA bleedthrough. I'm afraid of the splotchy finish created by the PVA bleedthrough.
I'm also afraid to prefinish the deck planks prior to installation because I won't be able to glue subsequent deck furniture.
See prestained deck plank below. It was stained with Minwax Golden Pecan oil based.
Any advice is sincerely appreciated.
Ted

 

[RussF]

Ted, you could probably solve the glue problem by using a more viscous PVA such as Weldbond or Aleene's Tacky Glue.

As for the stain, I've been using Transtint, an alcohol based dye on my Oseberg. It is concentrated, so a little goes a long way. You mix it yourself to the desired color in alcohol (isopropyl or denatured), lacquer thinner or water. I use an airbrush, but it can be wiped on as well. You can see my technique in the link just above.

I get mine at WoodCraft because there is one relatively near me. Rockler has it as well and their page has a color chart.

The nice thing about these is that you can mix the color and strength you want and being non-oil based, it won't affect future adhesion of deck furniture.

 

[Corsair]

Firstly, I would say that if you wanted to pre-stain the wood before installation, that should not create an issue with affixing deck furniture later. A stain penetrates the wood fibers and would still allow a glue to do the same, not like a paint which will also seal the wood. The glue depends on being able to penetrate into the fibers of the wood. You can also use a thicker glue that would help to prevent the 'soak-through". They make superglues in different thickness as well. It's even available as a gel.
Like you are already doing, always test before using on the build.

 

[RussF]

Firstly, I would say that if you wanted to pre-stain the wood before installation, that should not create an issue with affixing deck furniture later. A stain penetrates the wood fibers and would still allow a glue to do the same, not like a paint which will also seal the wood. The glue depends on being able to penetrate into the fibers of the wood. You can also use a thicker glue that would help to prevent the 'soak-through". They make superglues in different thickness as well. It's even available as a gel.
Like you are already doing, always test before using on the build.

Jeff, I have to respectfully disagree. Oil based stains also usually contain linseed oil which will seal the pores and negatively affect glue adhesion. Any treatise on wood finishing will always tell you to mask off areas that will be glued prior to staining. Simply G00gle "do oil based stains affect glue adhesion" and you can see for yourself.

 

[Roger Pellett]

I agree with Russ. Many so called stains are really a form of oil based paint. My father used to make his own for refinishing antique furniture. He mixed oil based artist colors with linseed oil. It will interfere with adhesion of the glue. On the other hand Transtint is a wood dye. It is not oil based. But, PVA wood glues are attacked by alcohol. Alcohol does quickly evaporate from the Transtint dye as it dries. Maybe use it before gluing the deck down.

Roger

 

[RussF]

I agree with Russ. Many so called stains are really a form of oil based paint. My father used to make his own for refinishing antique furniture. He mixed oil based artist colors with linseed oil. It will interfere with adhesion of the glue. On the other hand Transtint is a wood dye. It is not oil based. But, PVA wood glues are attacked by alcohol. Alcohol does quickly evaporate from the Transtint dye as it dries. Maybe use it before gluing the deck down.

Roger

Roger is correct in that alcohol will soften PVA, however, when you are intentionally trying to disassemble a glue joint, you would typically flood the area with alcohol and keep it wet until the glue gives. You definitely don't want to be flooding your decks with dye. Dip a lint free applicator, like the inexpensive cotton rounds or squares that are sold for applying or removing makeup, and swipe it across the area to dye until you get the color depth you want. The alcohol will evaporate quite quickly and shouldn't have time to affect the glue. Any pharmacy or department store will have them.

 

[Bob Cleek]

If you are intending to finish your deck "bright" (i.e. with a clear matte finish,) and expect to achieve a successful staining or dyeing result, you will probably be wise to use a different species for your deck planking than what the kit manufacturer supplied. From the picture you provided, it's grain figuring is way out of scale and any staining or dyeing you do is only going to exaggerate the "poke in the eye" coarse grain coloring of the kit-supplied planking. Strip wood is easily to obtain anywhere. If you intend to paint your hull, there's no need to use expensive finish species and if you want to finish the hull bright, there are many domestic species with little or no obnoxious grain figuring that are far better suited. Alaskan Yellow Cedar, clear Birch, and Cherry are a few examples.

Planking stock should be sawm vertical grained, not "flat" or plain sawn as your kit-provided stock. "Stripwood" planking is not at all an accurate portrayal of period planking practice. If you intend to fair your hull smooth and paint it, then it doesn't matter, but if you intend to finish you hull with the planking showing, (and at scale viewing distance the plank seams should not be visible,) you would do well to study up and use the standard planking practices rather than the planking approach that appears to be described in your kit instructions. Read the following planking instructional article before you buy any more "strip wood." It will explain why each plank must be separately spiled (shaped) to fit against its mates and must be cut from wider stock than the plank width. See: https://cdn.wildapricot.com/278718/...RqIo5HO0IX4CoPPA__&Key-Pair-Id=K27MGQSHTHAGGF See also: https://cdn.wildapricot.com/278718/...-0ANvZ8eAQujcOPg__&Key-Pair-Id=K27MGQSHTHAGGF and https://cdn.wildapricot.com/278718/...SIR2Xq49stSRKPrg__&Key-Pair-Id=K27MGQSHTHAGGF

When planing, keep in mind as well the scale width of the planks and their scale length. Period planking stock was never available in lengths longer than 24 or, perhaps, 30 feet. There was little available timber in longer lengths, and the technology to mill and transport much longer lumber from the forest to the shipyard didn't exist. It is also important to accurately schedule the plank butts if they are at all visible. There are rules for this which you can look up in most of the modeling manuals. Plank was never ever laid with a string of adjacent butts all on the same frame in a line, plank ends were never ever fastened with just a single fastener at the ends, and at scale viewing distances planking fasteners, are never ever visible. Depicting details contrary to these realities are common glaring mistakes made by many. Don't go there!

Planking correctly by laying out the run of the planks and shaping each as required may seem intimidating and a lot of work, but I can assure you that in the long run it is much easier than just cobbling together a bunch of strip wood to cover the frames and it produces the correct result instead of a sloppy, inaccurate representation of the real thing.

Don't hesitate to ask questions! We all get by with a little help from our friends. As they say, never swim alone. Always go with a buddy. The line modeler will find himself helpless and frustrated, Nobody knows it all. It is perhaps a "rite of initiation" for most all ship kit modelers that most kits are deficient in one way or another, and not infrequently in a number of ways. Therein lies the value of the build logs posted on ship modeling forums. They often make it possible to anticipate the problems inherent in a particular kit and avoid many hours of frustration trying to solve problems that have been already identified and solved by other builders before you. Building just about any kit by relying on the instructions, regardless of how good they may be, is a near-impossibility. They promise otherwise, but I don't know any manufacturer that provides instructions that don't presume at the very least that the builder has a fairly good command of basic woodworking skills, if not considerable knowledge regarding the construction practices of the subject ship's period. All of that later information must come from reading build logs and researching in the literature. In truth, the most essential tools for ship modeling are, books, books, and more books. For any serious modeler, an adequate research library is the most essential "tool" in their workshop.

As you may have already learned from experience, it takes a lot of research, re-engineering, and hard work beyond what the manufacturer's instructions indicate to get a good model out of many ship model kits, but all of that is as much a fun part of the hobby as anything else.

 

[AllanKP69]

From the picture you provided, it's grain figuring is way out of scale and any staining or dyeing you do is only going to exaggerate the "poke in the eye" coarse grain coloring of the kit-supplied planking.

Best advice IMHO. Save the stuff they provided for some other purpose and use a tight grained species that you like.

 

[Ted Robinson]

I would like to thank your u all for the advice.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

there are many domestic species with little or no obnoxious grain figuring that are far better suited. Alaskan Yellow Cedar, clear Birch, and Cherry are a few examples.

A box of pure Northern Birch tongue depressors yellow - tight - no grain - no open pores
A steel straight edge and sharp #11 blade makes for easy spilling.
Takes an alcohol based aliphatic wood dye if something darker is desired. PVA will bond it.

Hard to beat $13 /500:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/ForPro-S...9?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101327472

 

[Ted Robinson]

A box of pure Northern Birch tongue depressors yellow - tight - no grain - no open pores
A steel straight edge and sharp #11 blade makes for easy spilling.
Takes an alcohol based aliphatic wood dye if something darker is desired. PVA will bond it.

Hard to beat $13 /500:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/ForPro-S...9?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101327472

I don't think I can use these because if the limitations of the differences in deck elevations. However I will file this in my memory for future use.

 

[uncchains]

As far as securing your planking, I would suggest considering Titebond II. I have used it quite successfully on 5 ships and am using it on a 6th. It is readily available, water-soluable so it cleans up well, has a good set-up/drying time. I tried Titebond III but decided against it as it is thinner than II and takes longer to set and dry.

 

[Ted Robinson]

As far as securing your planking, I would suggest considering Titebond II. I have used it quite successfully on 5 ships and am using it on a 6th. It is readily available, water-soluable so it cleans up well, has a good set-up/drying time. I tried Titebond III but decided against it as it is thinner than II and takes longer to set and dry.

I'll get some today

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I don't think I can use these because if the limitations of the differences in deck elevations.

The sticks are probably thicker than your scale decking. I would have no problem using a thickness sander to get them down to any spec. But this is a scratch builder's machine.

I have been using Titebond II since I began all this. It has served me well. PVA bonds by building chains that grab an irregular wood surface and penetrate pores. The closer are the two wood surfaces, the stronger is the bond. PVA does not bond to a smooth surface - like metal - or a wood surface sanded much finer than 220-240 grit. 120 is probably better but 220 is a compulsion of mine. A shellac primed surface offers no tooth. A polymerized oil surface - like catalyzed Linseed oil or Tung oil will not bond - so this lets out enamel paint - or any stain - which is actually a type of paint. Nor will clear acrylic or acrylic with pigment particles (water based paint). Or polyurethane - a clear plastic - wipe-on poly is just dilute brush poly .

I like the 4oz Babe Bot $12 Amazon I just bought this 5oz knock off $5 Amazon


For spreading a just wet layer on both meeting surfaces I make my own applicators using tight packing foam and round toothpicks - Duco does not mind water.

 

[Ted Robinson]

The sticks are probably thicker than your scale decking. I would have no problem using a thickness sander to get them down to any spec. But this is a scratch builder's machine.

I have been using Titebond II since I began all this. It has served me well. PVA bonds by building chains that grab an irregular wood surface and penetrate pores. The closer are the two wood surfaces, the stronger is the bond. PVA does not bond to a smooth surface - like metal - or a wood surface sanded much finer than 220-240 grit. 120 is probably better but 220 is a compulsion of mine. A shellac primed surface offers no tooth. A polymerized oil surface - like catalyzed Linseed oil or Tung oil will not bond - so this lets out enamel paint - or any stain - which is actually a type of paint. Nor will clear acrylic or acrylic with pigment particles (water based paint). Or polyurethane - a clear plastic - wipe-on poly is just dilute brush poly .

I like the 4oz Babe Bot $12 Amazon I just bought this 5oz knock off $5 Amazon
View attachment 554737 View attachment 554736

For spreading a just wet layer on both meeting surfaces I make my own applicators using tight packing foam and round toothpicks - Duco does not mind water.View attachment 554741

Do you desolve the glue with acetone.
I can't but denatured alcohol in los Angeles county. We're being "protected" by our mayor and governor.

 

[Ted Robinson]

I think I have the demolition down to the one point where I can start rebuilding.
I'm going to fit the between deck parts, stern parts and between deck statues prior to glueing.
I've become quite accomplished at the demolition work.

 

[RussF]

Do you desolve the glue with acetone.
I can't but denatured alcohol in los Angeles county. We're being "protected" by our mayor and governor.

Acetone will dissolve PVA as will vinegar. If it is not water resistant PVA, water will work also, just slower. If you are not worried about saving the part you are removing, such as decking that you don't like, take a hot iron to it - the glue will soften and the part will come right off.

 

[Ted Robinson]

Acetone will dissolve PVA as will vinegar. If it is not water resistant PVA, water will work also, just slower. If you are not worried about saving the part you are removing, such as decking that you don't like, take a hot iron to it - the glue will soften and the part will come right off.

I noticed it said water resistant on the Amazon site if you look at any of my build logs to you will notice I have to do demolition somewhat frequently.
On the Bluenose kit it was my inexperience l, on the San Felipe it is mostly a poor plan set.
I'm building a five foot model with five inch details.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Acetone will dissolve PVA as will vinegar.

Not true in my experience. The vehicle for PVA is water. If a particular version is too thick, dilute with water. But not as much as might be imagined - Think in the range of 10% more water. PVA is acidic. The more water resistant is the final bond, the more acidic is the product. Titebond II is pH 3. Off the shelf vinegar is pH 2.4. The solvent that reverses a PVA bond is an alcohol. The most effective one is 2-propanol - isopropyl. Pharmacies here have 70% and 91%. The 91% is the better choice. Amazon has 99% Swan for $7/pt. if you wish to dissolve Shellac flakes in a solvent with a slightly longer wet time than 95% ethanol - Shellac thinner.
A PVA bond involves a chemical reaction - forming long chains. Alcohol untangles the chains but the reaction product stays the same new larger compounds.
There is white PVA - polymerizes water clear - yellow PVA - carpenters glue - polymerizes amber clear. It is more acidic and produces a stronger bond - Titebond II is a yellow PVA with additives for a water resistant bond - LA may not know from humidity, but over here on the southern Atlantic coast we do. Titebond III is forms a "waterproof" bond - It polymerizes brown. It is pH 2.5. (If it was something that is made of wood and I would float in it - I would still use resorcinol glue - something that would set your political nannies hair on fire.) There is a pH 7 white PVA (bookbinders). This is for rigging that is plant fibers twisted up.

Duco is nitrocellulose dissolved in acetone. Nitrocellulose is gun cotton. There is no chemical reaction involved with its bond. Apply wet- in solution - when the solvent evaporates, the dry nitrocellulose is the bond. Acetone will reverse the bond.

Do they allow rubber cement? The solvent - thinner is n-heptane. (7) gasoline has octane (8) - Are you allowed gasoline? Jibes aside - quality rubber cement like True Test is excellent for fixing patterns to wood. Coat both surfaces - a significant and through coat - let dry - stick together - no adjustment - instant bond.

This is also the same process with contact cement - DAP Weldwood contact cement - which is a really poor choice as a model component adhesive, a really really poor choice. In construction, it is good for any bonds that you do not mind coming apart after 20 years - it probably oxidizes to become so brittle.

I would not touch CA with a ten foot pole. It uses water as its reaction catalyst. I am having the thought that the more water the wood has at its surface, the quicker is the CA reaction. It has volatile components that are decidedly unhealthy. You cannot get acetone but can you get CA? If yes - there is a strange sort of logic involved. CA has a strong vertical bond (pull apart). The lateral (sheer force) bond strength is not so good. Acetone will reverse its bond. Perhaps the humidity in LA is low enough that a bottle of CA will not start reacting in it container as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere?