What Brands Make Higher End Limited Edition/"Museum Quality" Model Kits and How Different Are They from a Standard Kit?

[Horace]

This is exactly right, the kits all have a level of compromise somewhere, some more than others. Scratch builds can also have compromises but the builder gets to choose those, if any, based upon his skill, time, and available materials and tools.

If scratch building is simple, then there's no reason for anybody to believe in a hierarchy of the hobby where scratch building is above kit building. But I suspect most people do believe that, even if they won't say it out loud. Right in this thread we've seen the claim that scratch building is simple, alongside the claim that scratch builders are master builders.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

This idea for the lessons was surely good, but the execution is a mess
DS is obviously not a teacher; if he were, he would know that you only get one chance to capture the students' attention.
You certainly don't achieve that with long monologues about the old days.
There are so many YouTube videos that are much better structured and offer far more than just still images (though, of course, there are plenty of bad ones too).

Perhaps DS could get help from a real teacher who knows how to structure his thread?
There is definitely good stuff in there, but it is well hidden.

if the DS is me you are right i am not a "teacher" an absolute armature at it. I could have my daughter a real teacher who teaches teachers how to teach edit and construct the classes in the school but no need to bother her.

There is definitely good stuff in there, but it is well hidden.

if you do see the diamonds among the coal as far as i am concerned mission accomplished.

ubjs i would like to extend an offer to you to join the staff at the school we can use your insights and expertise and skills in teaching. It is a lot of work and everything is peer reviewed. it is one thing to talk the talk but can you walk the walk?

there is a faculty lounge when everything is discussed and reviewed and sometimes brutal feedback. So PM me and we can discuss your roll in teaching at the school. Criticism is easy backing it up with action is the tough part.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

If scratch building is simple, then there's no reason for anybody to believe in a hierarchy of the hobby where scratch building is above kit building. But I suspect most people do believe that, even if they won't say it out loud.

i am not talking for all scratch builder but those who participate in the school do not think scratch building is above kit building scratch building is just another approach to the hobby granted a little harder but not better than.

Right in this thread we've seen the claim that scratch building is simple, alongside the claim that scratch builders are master builders

that sounds like an oxymoron simple but requires a master builder. I guess first is to define what is meant by "simple" there are levels in scratch building the higher end is far from simple. Not all scratch builders are master builders but a kit builder flirting with scratch building should pick an easy uncomplicated subject to get started that is the simple part you do not need a shop full of expensive tools, your skills as a kit builder should help you accomplish the task. Then as you learn and develop skills so you can pick any subject and know how to "make it work"

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

New discussions on old topics are annoying for a small minority but good for the rest, and for the forum in general. It's never a bad idea to search old threads for information, and if you want to resurrect that thread, that's ok. But starting a new thread is fine too, and it's good for the forum. The voices of the minority who have seen it all and don't want to see it all again, are inevitable, but probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.

all i can say to that is your right

 

[TheGatzby]

I guess first is to define what is meant by "simple"

An old favorite of mine is:
" One man's 'simple' is another man's 'huh?'...

 

[AllanKP69]

there's no reason for anybody to believe in a hierarchy of the hobby where scratch building is above kit building.

Not above, but certainly different. Old story here, but the only reason I started with scratch building is that I had a few tools from my grandfather and father, (still use my grandfather's work bench that he bought the year my dad was born - 1919) and I could not afford a kit what with a young family and lots of bills. I did not and do not feel the least bit an elitist, it is just old habits and the added fun of having to do a lot of research and drafting. That's just me and has NOTHING to do with the desires, priorities and what is fun for anyone else. Having a site like this we can see there are choices for all of us, including kit builders. There are great kits from a couple manufacturers and kudos to them and those that enjoy building them. A repeat, but one of these days I will have to give up my little shop and am happy there is a company like MD doing well and Portland coming on strong.
Allan

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

DS is obviously not a teacher; if he were, he would know that you only get one chance to capture the students' attention.

interesting statement the school has over 110,000 views and growing everyday so it is getting someone's attention
ubjs "but the execution is a mess"
in that case we can really use your expertise to expand the school and attract attention with your help we can push that 110,000 views to 210,000 or in the long run making the school the highest viewed subject SoS has ever had. personally, i am looking forward to working with you in the school. We will set you up in your own classroom and you can conduct it any way you see fit. PM me and let's get started!

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

An old favorite of mine is:
" One man's 'simple' is another man's 'huh?'...

boy is that the truth we were just talking about that in the teachers' lounge about the Rattlesnake build going on in the school. Harold Hahn made it look easy and simple but there are so many failed attempts, pitfalls all along the way. Hahn was an artist with extreme skills, an engineer who held close tolerances that few are able to do. Keep watching new classes are in the works what looks easy is not and how to work around it to avoid the pitfalls.

 

[Horace]

I think there is an objective fact that might be important, which is scratch building requires all the skills kit building does, and extra skills beyond those. So I think it's just true that scratch building is harder.

 

[TheGatzby]

...scratch building is harder.

Requiring more work, is not necessarily harder..

 

[Horace]

Requiring more work, is not necessarily harder..

If everything else is equal between two things, but one thing requires more work to accomplish, that thing is harder. I think that's a reasonable thing to say.

But not everything else is equal between scratch and kit builds.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

I think there is an objective fact that might be important, which is scratch building requires all the skills kit building does, and extra skills beyond those. So I think it's just true that scratch building is harder.

now that depends on how hard core, you're into scratch building. Any kit builder who has built a kit or two does have the skills the extra skills come into play at the "harder end that is if your scratch building starting with research and drawing your own modeling plans then you have to have drafting skills as well as knowing the subject of ship building and that is not "model" ship building but actual ship building. Then the hard core builders mill their own scale lumber that requires woodworking skills. Let's ease up a bit here and scratch building can be done from modeling plans already done and you can purchase dimensional scale lumber not finished but dimensional lumber there is a difference in the two.

you really cannot generalize kit building or scratch building there is a gray area that overlaps both we call kit bashing or semi-scratch building

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

If everything else is equal between two things, but one thing requires more work to accomplish, that thing is harder. I think that's a reasonable thing to say.

But not everything else is equal between scratch and kit builds.

true statement but not only true between kit and scratch but kit to kit you can begin with a dory starter kit that another kit builder may say so what my 8 year old can do that try a plank on frame semi kit that is the higher end of kit building.
or a scratch builder asking you did you draw the plans you built from or did you use someone pre work?

 

[KevinW]

Seems like the original question has got lost in the debate. Here’s my tuppence worth. Chances are very, very few people will have been able to compare, at first hand, models of the same ship made from different kits and especially won’t have undertaken a step by step comparison throughout the builds. How many people repeat the same ship across multiple manufacturers?

I’d say the best way to answer your question is to pick a ship that is sold as a kit by several big names, then find and read detailed logs of the respective builds. You should find the ‘whinge’ and ‘wow’ points for each within each log, and get some sense of the kits quality.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

Seems like the original question has got lost in the debate.

that is ok drifting off the original question opens up a much wider view and there is a lot of information in this thread to think about.
drifting is caused by the original question having been answered the rest is added info

 

[Roger Pellett]

Ship models represent a branch of engineering; naval architecture. What, therefore, do the professionals have to say about them? Two naval architects who have written on the subject, Howard Chapelle and L. Francis Herreshoff both agree that a well built ship model accurately replicates the lines of the actual boat or ship being modeled. In other words the shape of the hull should be a smaller version of the real thing.

So how well do kits do in this respect? The variation is wide. Some kits for popular subjects where drawings do not exist; Santa Maria, Golden Hind, etc. are fantasies that have not even been revised to take into account recent archeological scholarship. Others, USB Niagara, Mayflower, Pride of Baltimore etc, use drawings from replicas that may resemble the named vessels but have modified hull forms to meet present day safety standards. Popular kits like HMS Victory and Constitution may be based on actual drawings but spacing of widely shaped bulkheads may not be sufficient to generate an accurate hull form. Solid hull models can offer the skilled builder the opportunity to shape a highly accurate hull.

The companies that Allan mentions above offer a new generation of ship model kits; true plank on frame model building, but limited in subjects. They should allow careful builders to build accurately shaped hulls.

Roger

 

[DocTom]

Very interestinng discussion here. Something @Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said got me thinking that we need better kit reviews. That might answer the original poster's question. Every kit review I have read has been the written equivalent of a YouTube unboxing video: describing the contents of the kit and saying something like "This will make a great model." What would be more interesting is reviewing a kit after you build it. Most people do this to some extent in the final post of a finished model, but a formal review would be really helpful. I plan to do it with my Harriet Lane (I'm keeping notes), and may try to go back and do it with the Model Shipways Dory, Pram and Lobster Smack, but I don't have any pictures of the unboxing of those kits.

Tom

 

[smarks15]

Very interestinng discussion here. Something @Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said got me thinking that we need better kit reviews. That might answer the original poster's question. Every kit review I have read has been the written equivalent of a YouTube unboxing video: describing the contents of the kit and saying something like "This will make a great model." What would be more interesting is reviewing a kit after you build it. Most people do this to some extent in the final post of a finished model, but a formal review would be really helpful. I plan to do it with my Harriet Lane (I'm keeping notes), and may try to go back and do it with the Model Shipways Dory, Pram and Lobster Smack, but I don't have any pictures of the unboxing of those kits.

Tom

As a someone new to the hobby, I have found most pre-build reviews I’ve seen aren’t super informative. Lots seem to essentially catalog what’s in the box.

My sense is it’s hard to know if there’s a quality control issue, missing parts, ambiguous instructions, etc. etc. if you haven’t built the kit yet.

That being said, I also have the sense that everyone has their own preferences and priorities when it comes to kits/builds. I personally am more frustrated with historical inaccuracies than with poor quality parts (and heard much more about the latter in the reviews of the current kit I’m building than the former).