an idea to reach more audiences

Bob Cleek said:
The first question that has to be answered is: "What's the point of reaching more audiences?" I hear this sentiment now and again and I always wonder what purpose there is to popularizing ship modeling. It only makes sense if you are trying to make money off of it and, God knows, there's a whole lot of easier ways to make money. Everything anyone could possibly want to learn about ship modeling has been published repeatedly in books and as noted, now on the internet, which has put huge amounts of primary research material at our fingertips. Every tool and material a modeler could imaginably desire is available to order online. It's in the nature of the thing that ship models will always have a very limited audience. An oil painting tells a story in a language everybody understands. A ship model tells a story only a very few know how to read. And it has always been thus.

As a general rule, the rarity of any item or skill tends to increase its value. Flooding what little market for ship models that exists in any event with mediocre "paint-by-numbers" kit models which are usually not as historically accurate nor as well executed as one might hope, only serves to reduce the general public's appreciation for the entire artform itself. Most see little value in ship models which take up a lot of space and are only understood for their true academic historical value by a very few. Adding a never-ending parade of poor examples to the "fleet" doesn't make them any more endearing.

I submit that well done ship models will only come to realize the wide respect they truly deserve as works of fine art and historical research when the general public sees them not as something off of a hobby shop shelf (or website,) but rather as the product of highly skilled craftsmanship requiring years of research, experience, artistic skill and dedication of the highest order. The experienced ship modeler's response to the often-heard statement, "Oh, I would never have the patience to build a ship model." should never be an encouraging, "Oh, sure you can!", but rather, "Probably not. Very few people possess the knowledge and skills to be able to create such a thing, which is what has made them so valuable and treasured for hundreds of years." It's just for very special people like us! ;)

Now, I know there are those who maintain they assemble kits for their own enjoyment, that it's "just a hobby," and they don't care all that much about historical accuracy or perfection in execution because "the perfect is the enemy of good enough." I'm not claiming that I'm any better at it than they are, but rather only that I think they've missed the best part of it when they stop short of trying to be as good at it as they could be. I think ship modelers should be recognized as an elite fraternity of exceptionally skilled scholar/artists who accurately portray maritime history in precisely executed miniatures. I think those worthy of belonging to such a group will find their way to it on their own, which in itself is part of the price of admission. Ship modeling isn't for everybody, and it shouldn't be.
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Hello Bob,

I've read through your post several times looking for things I might affirm (that's part of my pastoral nature). But at the end of the day I'll submit to you that I am proof that you have missed the center of the target here.

No one who has looked at one of my models views or judges them in their historical context. My ship models are appreciated because people see the effort. No one questions or judges their technical excellence - but everyone recognizes that I poured my heart and soul into the making of something special. They don't know how to 'read' my work; and frankly, that is quite beside the point.

Oh, did I mention that I build KITS. Kits that are replete with mistakes. Kits that are (or were) mass produced for the general consumption of the market. And I build because it is 'just a hobby' and I have given voice countless times to the notion that 'perfect is the enemy of good' - because it is.

Before you dismiss me as a someone less - take a look at my work product. I am a genuine hobbyist who is only doing it for fun and who finds great joy in the fact that it is a diversion rather than an end to itself. I came to this hobby vicariously - not in the pursuit of anything other than the enjoyment found in the journey, in the outcome, and in the shared community. I am everything you seem to find misplaced or improper. And yet here I am having the time of my life.
 
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My honorable masters, my aim is not to make and sell a kit, it is an idea put forward in order to make modeling more respectable... It is of course a difficult and arduous process that needs to be planned very well and I am sure that if it could be put into practice, it would be followed by much larger masses... Of course, its possibility is debatable, the idea may be wrong or incomplete...
 
I can't express any better what Jimsky and Doc have, but I will add, that I've long been a denizen of another suite of modeling sites running the gammut of armor, aircraft, figures, ships, you name it. I don't think I've ever seen it suggested there that folks should forego kitbuilding and go straight into scratchbuilding whatever their particular interest may be. The truly exceptional scratchbuilders typically have matured from kit building to kitbashing to scratchbuilding.

I'm tempted to draw parallels with paint-by-numbers kits, but it would probably be superfluous.

For my own part, I don't expect any of my models to wind up in a museum, viewed by scholars--my most recently completed wooden boat is on a windowsill in the bathroom. While I have much reverence and respect to those who have the time and inclination I lack to reach the high end of the asymptotic curve of perfect historical accuracy, I have even more reverence and respect for those willing to share their knowledge and passion with those of us still on the lower end of the curve. Thankfully, they abound on SoS.
 
Bob's ideas are similar to those used in medieval guilds. As you know, it was not a very successful path when it came to development etc.
In fact, professional builders depend on a broad mass of hobby builders. They are the ones who make it possible for various manufacturers to sell gadgets, tools, etc.
So Bob, there you have the answer to your question, you yourself depend on many building model ships. Without us mere mortals you would be forced to make your own tools, build your own lathe, mill etc.
 
ubjs said:
Bob's ideas are similar to those used in medieval guilds. As you know, it was not a very successful path when it came to development etc.
In fact, professional builders depend on a broad mass of hobby builders. They are the ones who make it possible for various manufacturers to sell gadgets, tools, etc.
So Bob, there you have the answer to your question, you yourself depend on many building model ships. Without us mere mortals you would be forced to make your own tools, build your own lathe, mill etc.
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Bob and Roger have both refuted that claim, and I must confess their argument has merit. Certainly, a similar consideration applies to supplies. Manufacturers of custom scale ropes, blocks, cannons, miscellaneous fittings, and timber (for which there is little, if any, demand outside of this hobby) will eventually close shop when demand no longer supports staying in business. Not the end of the world for someone willing to devote all their time, energy, and cash to building historically accurate ship models from scratch, but it does significantly raise the bar for entry.

Being, as it is, a hobby, I would hope there would be room for all of us.
 
But it's not just ship model building that is declining, virtually all model building is declining. The reduction appears to be particularly large when it comes to model railways.
As 3d printers become more common and better, the need for milling cutters, lathes, etc. also decreases.
We really don't need to scare away those interested in model building. In a shrinking market, all initiatives to recruit more are interesting, I think. In Sweden we still have a strong public service television, the situation is probably the same in Great Britain. The BBC I think are some who would be interested in making model ship television.
 
Here is another of my 'favorite' terms - Museum Quality. The term “museum-quality” is often held up as the gold standard in ship modeling—a benchmark that suggests impeccable craftsmanship, historical accuracy, and visual polish. It evokes images of pristine models behind glass, lit just right, admired in hushed reverence. But for all its prestige, the phrase can be misleading. Not every object in a museum is perfect, and not every perfect object belongs in a museum. The value of a ship model, like any artifact, runs deeper than surface excellence.

Museums don’t only showcase masterpieces—they preserve stories. Many ship models on display weren’t made to impress but to document, remember, or even pass the time. Some were built by sailors from scraps, shaped more by necessity and sentiment than by a quest for precision. Others are old training aids, not showpieces, yet they’re treasured for what they represent. When we hold up “museum-quality” as the only mark of worth, we risk overlooking the soul of the model—the narrative it carries and the hand that built it.

In the ship modeling community, there’s a danger in chasing perfection at the expense of enjoyment or inclusivity. A model built with passion, care, and curiosity—whether it’s a plank-on-frame masterpiece or a modest kit assembled on a kitchen table—can be just as meaningful as anything behind glass. “Museum-quality” shouldn’t be a gate to keep others out, but a reminder of what’s possible when craftsmanship meets story. The sea, after all, has room for every vessel.
 
Negative Ned here. I don’t think you can pull someone into this hobby unless they have somewhat of an interest already.
Where I live a ton of money has just been spent building a pickle ball complex.
Will I ever go to play pickle ball? No. I have exactly zero interest in it and yes I have seen the game played.
My best friend is a hard core addicted gambler; horses being his main drug. He no longer tries to get me to attend the track as it is obvious that I have no interest in it.
I never talk model ship building with him because he has zero interest in it.
I think the above floated ideas are great but will they be effective? Who knows.
 
Jimsky said:
Here is another of my 'favorite' terms - Museum Quality. The term “museum-quality” is often held up as the gold standard in ship modeling—a benchmark that suggests impeccable craftsmanship, historical accuracy, and visual polish. It evokes images of pristine models behind glass, lit just right, admired in hushed reverence. But for all its prestige, the phrase can be misleading. Not every object in a museum is perfect, and not every perfect object belongs in a museum. The value of a ship model, like any artifact, runs deeper than surface excellence.

Museums don’t only showcase masterpieces—they preserve stories. Many ship models on display weren’t made to impress but to document, remember, or even pass the time. Some were built by sailors from scraps, shaped more by necessity and sentiment than by a quest for precision. Others are old training aids, not showpieces, yet they’re treasured for what they represent. When we hold up “museum-quality” as the only mark of worth, we risk overlooking the soul of the model—the narrative it carries and the hand that built it.

In the ship modeling community, there’s a danger in chasing perfection at the expense of enjoyment or inclusivity. A model built with passion, care, and curiosity—whether it’s a plank-on-frame masterpiece or a modest kit assembled on a kitchen table—can be just as meaningful as anything behind glass. “Museum-quality” shouldn’t be a gate to keep others out, but a reminder of what’s possible when craftsmanship meets story. The sea, after all, has room for every vessel.
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Well written, well said.
 
i have noticed more and more off the topic of model ship building being posted and talked about. The reason i suspect is pretty much everything has been covered. how do i plank a hull, what glue to use, build logs of the same kits over and over. Perhaps members here are looking for a deeper meaning to why we gather as a group using the hobby as a catalyst. Maybe it is about a search a more profound reason we spend hundreds of hours lost in our hobby.

The elite producers of works of fine art and historical research are welcome to look down on me for prioritising pleasure over accuracy, but I'm afraid they aren't going to find me looking up

to me Harold Hahn was the master the elite of the elite and yes he did look down on me when we first met. But i looked up and i saw that is where i wanted to be some day. I was just starting out in commercial graphic arts at the time, Hahn has works of art in the Cleveland Museum of Art, he wrote articles and published books, his models sold for more than i earned in a year. i looked up to see what could be!
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
to me Harold Hahn was the master the elite of the elite and yes he did look down on me when we first met. But i looked up and i saw that is where i wanted to be some day. I was just starting out in commercial graphic arts at the time, Hahn has works of art in the Cleveland Museum of Art, he wrote articles and published books, his models sold for more than i earned in a year. i looked up to see what could be!
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Hi Dave,
While I can appreciate the respect and admiration that Harold Hahn undoubtedly earned through his exceptional work, I think it's worth reconsidering the idea of elitism in the world of ship modeling, or any craft, for that matter. Hahn’s accomplishments, from his intricate models to his published works and recognition in prestigious places like the Cleveland Museum of Art, are a testament to his skill and dedication. But skill and knowledge shouldn't automatically place one builder on a pedestal above others. ;)

Ship modeling, like any art form, thrives when it's inclusive, and the best builders don’t just keep their expertise to themselves. They share it, mentor others, and encourage those who are just starting their journey, just as Hahn’s influence has undoubtedly inspired many. The journey of ship modeling is about passion, learning, and growing, not about measuring oneself against an "elite" standard. It’s about finding joy in the craft, no matter where you are in your journey. So, while it's natural to look up to someone who has reached such heights, it’s also important to remember that mastery doesn’t mean exclusion. Everyone can improve, everyone can contribute, and the community grows stronger when it embraces all levels of skill.

Dmitry Shevelev and Mikhail Bezverkhniy, two distinguished figures in the world of ship modeling, each contributing uniquely to the craft. Both of them have significantly influenced the field of ship modeling, each bringing a unique perspective and skill set that enriches the craft.

There are skilled craftsmen all over the world, including right here in our forum, so why turn it into an elite club?
 
there was a turning point in my life that changed everything. I did look at the "snobs" the elite those with money, fame and social standing as people who lived on the hill and looked down on all us common people. how dare they think that way!
i kind of sort of agree with bob Creek and if you shift your perspective, it shows a different view.
this is a very old picture where i lived with my X and young daughter now 53 yeas old so you can imagine how long ago it was.
marilyn theresa ross house.jpg

when friends came to visit they would walk around the gardens and grounds holy #% this place is huge!

doug rich marilyn.jpg

what changed my mind about the elite was living on this estate. No i did not live in the house you see i lived in the small ground keepers house way at the back of the property. I was the grounds keeper and my wife was a maid who cleaned the house and cared for Doctor Russ a surgeon and his wife who wrote medical books.

i experienced first hand what it took to live on the top of the social hill. How lady Russ was still in the library at 2 in the morning researching and writing night after night. The years they both spent in medical school, the sheer dedication, the pressure, the skill level they achieved. They deserved everything they had. I walked away from those days with a healthy respect for what can be achieved and saw what can be done with anything by looking up to those who have made it to the top.

Bob Creek is right there is the best of the best those who spent years of work and research and dedication and they show us what can be achieved. The rest is up to you no one is holding you back, no one is looking down on anyone.
it is true Hahn had a dislike of kits he did not look down on it he just saw there was so much more to the art.
 
Interesting that social status and money are so closely linked to ‘elitist’ thinking about making our toy boats. ;) Perhaps we should raise the prices of plans, kits, tools etc to keep out the riff raff.

Oh no, on second thoughts kits probably don’t count anyway. ROTFROTFROTFROTF

~~~~~~~

Interesting thread, shades of 1789. Will the tumbrils roll?
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
there was a turning point in my life that changed everything. I did look at the "snobs" the elite those with money, fame and social standing as people who lived on the hill and looked down on all us common people. how dare they think that way!
i kind of sort of agree with bob Creek and if you shift your perspective, it shows a different view.
this is a very old picture where i lived with my X and young daughter now 53 yeas old so you can imagine how long ago it was.
View attachment 514949

when friends came to visit they would walk around the gardens and grounds holy #% this place is huge!

View attachment 514950

what changed my mind about the elite was living on this estate. No i did not live in the house you see i lived in the small ground keepers house way at the back of the property. I was the grounds keeper and my wife was a maid who cleaned the house and cared for Doctor Russ a surgeon and his wife who wrote medical books.

i experienced first hand what it took to live on the top of the social hill. How lady Russ was still in the library at 2 in the morning researching and writing night after night. The years they both spent in medical school, the sheer dedication, the pressure, the skill level they achieved. They deserved everything they had. I walked away from those days with a healthy respect for what can be achieved and saw what can be done with anything by looking up to those who have made it to the top.

Bob Creek is right there is the best of the best those who spent years of work and research and dedication and they show us what can be achieved. The rest is up to you no one is holding you back, no one is looking down on anyone.
it is true Hahn had a dislike of kits he did not look down on it he just saw there was so much more to the art.
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I hear what you're saying, Dave, and there's no doubt that people like Bob Creek and others may have set incredibly high standards through years of dedicated work and research. That kind of craftsmanship is inspiring, no question. But I think it's also important to recognize that not everyone approaches ship modeling with the same goals, resources, or interests, and that’s perfectly okay.

Saying “no one is looking down on anyone” doesn’t always match how things come across, especially when certain methods or choices, like using kits, are regularly framed as less meaningful. When someone implies there's only one way to truly honor the craft, it can unintentionally alienate others who are also deeply passionate, just in a different way. There’s room in the harbor for many kinds of ships - and many kinds of modelers.

To me, celebrating excellence shouldn't mean creating a hierarchy or club of the elite. Inspiration is great, but respect for all approaches is what keeps the community like SOS healthy and growing.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
Bob Creek is right there is the best of the best those who spent years of work and research and dedication and they show us what can be achieved. The rest is up to you no one is holding you back, no one is looking down on anyone.
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Are you sure about that?

Bob Cleek said:
The experienced ship modeler's response to the often-heard statement, "Oh, I would never have the patience to build a ship model." should never be an encouraging, "Oh, sure you can!", but rather, "Probably not. Very few people possess the knowledge and skills to be able to create such a thing, which is what has made them so valuable and treasured for hundreds of years." It's just for very special people like us!
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Mr. Cleek was making a point - but in making his point he discourages others from seeking and experiencing the joy I have found in ship modeling. I'll check and raise: let's encourage people to try their hand at a fun hobby and give them the space and encouragement to grow in it - not for the sake of growing the HOBBY - but that they might experience the satisfaction of creating something with their hands and hearts.

I'll speak more plainly: some of what I am reading here in this thread and elsewhere on this forum has (sadly) deeply damaged another forum - let's not allow those seeds to take root here on SOS.
 
Saying “no one is looking down on anyone” doesn’t always match how things come across, especially when certain methods or choices, like using kits, are regularly framed as less meaningful.

"less meaningful" is relative to who and to what end. For the builder it means accomplishment to whatever level they are on. Kits are meaningful to the hobby at large it is a starting point and an end point for those who are satisfied with the hobby. for an art dealer kits are less meaningful because they are not an original piece created by a known artist they are mass produced hobby toys.

To me, celebrating excellence shouldn't mean creating a hierarchy or club of the elite.

but in every craft, skill, art form even something like a chief or doctor, Chess has their grandmasters a hierarchy is natural serving an apprenticeship is how we advance. Education has it's hierarchy you go to high school and you can stop there or go on and on to a PHD or even higher up.
So we are not creating a hierarchy it is a natural evolution. it happens

the only thing i hold against those who have accomplished their goals in any endeavor is not sharing how they did it. lady Russ spent her life documenting and publishing what DR Russ was doing. Hahn spent time writing and creating a system for those who want to advance.

I believe Ships of Scale is the number one place to get involved in model ship building from a rank beginner to the most advanced. What makes it nonelite is the fact you do not have to be a paid member to get information. we are not selling how to information, we will answer you questions no matter how many times it is asked. This puts us all on a level playing field

what "the elite" means to me is someone or some organization when asked for help will walk away saying" i worked hard for all this, so no i am not just going to hand it to you" or "it will cost you" or "go do the work" "i do not have the time to bother with you" your not a paid member so you are not intitled to information.
the above is NOT the philosophy of Sips in Scale
 
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