starting from this drawing... is it possible to trace the geometric position frames along the keel?
usually you would need also the longitudinal lines
usually... but not in this case
If you are going to fully frame the model you need a number of things such as the station lines and room and space. Once in a while there are framing disposition drawings that show exactly where the frames go. This probably does not apply very well to the Charles Morgan, but for what it's worth the R&S can be found for English ships in contracts and in the Establishments as well as in Steel's The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture and The Shipbuilder's Repository 1788 for various eras. The futtocks vary in breadth as well, but the floors and first futtocks are the key pieces to be located on the keel. I doubt you will find many, if any, drawings of the framing dispositions before the second half of the 18th century so will need the scantlings from the sources mentioned above and a profile drawing with the station lines. If you do find some, PLEASE post them.
The R&S for a sloop of war, if based on the 1719 Establishment, was about 24" This was increased to 28" in the 1745 Establishment. The floors were probably sided about 11" This MIGHT not apply to a bomb vessel such as Granado although she was originally built as a sloop of war at Harwich in which case these scantlings could very well apply. If there is a contract in existence it would probably be at the National Archives in Kew. Even with the Establishments, based on contracts, these dimensions seemed to vary a lot. A part of a contract for a 20 gun of 1755 with a gun deck of 107 feet 8 inches can be seen below showing the room and space and siding of the floors.
Allan
The R&S for a sloop of war, if based on the 1719 Establishment, was about 24" This was increased to 28" in the 1745 Establishment. The floors were probably sided about 11" This MIGHT not apply to a bomb vessel such as Granado although she was originally built as a sloop of war at Harwich in which case these scantlings could very well apply. If there is a contract in existence it would probably be at the National Archives in Kew. Even with the Establishments, based on contracts, these dimensions seemed to vary a lot. A part of a contract for a 20 gun of 1755 with a gun deck of 107 feet 8 inches can be seen below showing the room and space and siding of the floors.
Allan
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You have a regular distance of the frames on the keel shown by the lines in the cross section
BTW: also the logintudinal lines are existing of the Charles W Morgan
store.mysticseaport.org
BTW: also the logintudinal lines are existing of the Charles W Morgan
CHARLES W. MORGAN, Whaleship | Mystic Seaport Ships Plans
<p><a title="CHARLES W. MORGAN" href="http://library.mysticseaport.org/exhibits/morgan.cfm">CHARLES W. MORGAN</a>, a 113' 11" whaling bark, was built in 1841 by Jethro & Zachariah Hillman of Fairhaven, Massachusetts and named for one of the major shar
store.mysticseaport.org
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if your asking if you can draw all the frames between the station lines using just the bodyplan the answer is yes
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looking at the framing of the Charles Morgan it looks like double frames were used at the station lines (those shown in the bodyplan) and single filler frames used between the double frames.
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another way to get all the frame shapes is to build a half model
starting with the bodyplan
use the body lines and cut out blocks to the lines. Use a soft wood or high density foam board and pin them together. Don't glue them because you will have to take the hull apart.
depending on how far apart the bodylines are placed along the hull and how many frames between them you add blocks for each frame.
the rough hull before sanding
now sand the hull to its shape by using the original bodylines as a guide
you will have all your bevels done
take the hull apart and either scan the pieces or use them as a template and trace around them
starting with the bodyplan
use the body lines and cut out blocks to the lines. Use a soft wood or high density foam board and pin them together. Don't glue them because you will have to take the hull apart.
depending on how far apart the bodylines are placed along the hull and how many frames between them you add blocks for each frame.
the rough hull before sanding
now sand the hull to its shape by using the original bodylines as a guide
you will have all your bevels done
take the hull apart and either scan the pieces or use them as a template and trace around them
Dave Stevens,
Yes but... my problem is knowing the exact distance between the various frames. From an unreliable drawing, I traced the various distances.
based on these values I designed the whole, but I remain in doubt...
Yes but... my problem is knowing the exact distance between the various frames. From an unreliable drawing, I traced the various distances.
based on these values I designed the whole, but I remain in doubt...
This is the drawing I'm working on.. The CAD gives me these distances between the frames:
36.4 34.4 35.9 35.9 70.3 69.3 67.3 66.8 65.3 66.3 31.9 33.4 31.4 33.4
At this point I can correct the values and make them consistent with each other.
36.4 34.4 35.9 35.9 70.3 69.3 67.3 66.8 65.3 66.3 31.9 33.4 31.4 33.4
At this point I can correct the values and make them consistent with each other.
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This is the drawing I'm working on.. The CAD gives me these distances between the frames:
36.4 34.4 35.9 35.9 70.3 69.3 67.3 66.8 65.3 66.3 31.9 33.4 31.4 33.4
At this point I can correct the values and make them consistent with each other.
they should not be the same distance apart. as the curves of the hull change the closer together the station lines become. Midship where there is little change in the shape of the hull so the station lines will be farther apart.
36.4 34.4 35.9 35.9 70.3 69.3 67.3 66.8 65.3 66.3 31.9 33.4 31.4 33.4
At this point I can correct the values and make them consistent with each other.
they should not be the same distance apart. as the curves of the hull change the closer together the station lines become. Midship where there is little change in the shape of the hull so the station lines will be farther apart.
Hi Dave
Is this particular to the Charles Morgan or merchant ships or whalers in general? I had never seen the station lines being different distances on British navy vessels so this practice is new for me. I have seen where the distance from midships (0) to stations (1) and (A) are smaller than the others otherwise the distance never varied. I realize it is common that every other station is marked for most of the length as seen below, but there is no variation from station to station. What am I missing?
Thank you very much.
Allan
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i have come across drawings where the station lines are closer together at the bow and stern where the hull changes shape within a short distance.
but your right all the British navy vessels have equal spacing of station lines.
but your right all the British navy vessels have equal spacing of station lines.
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if you change the location of the station lines on the original drawing you will change the shape of the hull
here is an admiralty drawing that shows the station lines are closer together at the bow and stern
here is an admiralty drawing that shows the station lines are closer together at the bow and stern
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What appears on lines drawings (aka draughts) are “stations.” Stations do not always represent actual frame locations. They exist primarily to define the shape of the hull. Original drawings for warships built in well organized admiralty dockyards (British) often locate stations at anticipated frame locations. In other cases this might not be true. In American yards building merchant ships, the lines drawing might have been skipped entirely in favor of a half model from which dimensional information (offsets) was generated. In all cases, the final determination of hull shape and exact frame location was subject to location on the mound loft floor.
A special problem exists with models of American vessels built from non original drawings; Chapelle’s being a prime example. Many of these come from two sources, Dimensions lifted by the British from drydocked captured vessels, or hull shapes developed from half models in museum collections. In these cases information to locate frame locations would often be unavailable. The drawings are still accurate but station locations are independent from frames.
Roger
A special problem exists with models of American vessels built from non original drawings; Chapelle’s being a prime example. Many of these come from two sources, Dimensions lifted by the British from drydocked captured vessels, or hull shapes developed from half models in museum collections. In these cases information to locate frame locations would often be unavailable. The drawings are still accurate but station locations are independent from frames.
Roger
Dave, I agree with you that if the model builder is only making frames based on the stations shown on the plan rather than fully framed, they need to be attentive to their location on the keel. but I do not think the station lines are closer together, it is just that only every other station line is shown in the center area of the profile drawing. Same thing happens on the body plan. In the plan below on the left I sketched in stations 24 and 26 and marked 22, 24, and 26 on the profile view on the right in magenta. I can't tell from the pictures you posted but I venture to guess it is the same thing, they merely show every other station for most of the hull length. In the below the distance from station to station is always the same, 26 inches. but when the plan only shows every other station the distance is 52 inches. I think you can see in the drawing the original station numbers and not all of them are drawn in by the draftsman.
Allan
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I do not think the station lines are closer together, it is just that only every other station line is shown in the center area of the profile drawing.
i did measure the drawing in post #14 and your right the station lines at the bow and stern are the same distance apart as the midship ones the difference is a station line is added between the originals.
i did measure the drawing in post #14 and your right the station lines at the bow and stern are the same distance apart as the midship ones the difference is a station line is added between the originals.
Thanks Dave, Yes the originals only include alternate stations and this seems to be common place on contemporary drawings. It gets even stranger at times. Examples from the 17th century are often different. The plan below does not follow the convention of numbers aft of midships and letters forward as seen in the 18th century and beyond. The stations are numbered from 1 aft to 124 forward and to add to this it only shows every tenth station line on the profile and body plan. It seems nothing is ever 100% in our hobby.
Allan
Allan
All very interesting, but no one has answered the initial question that gave rise to this thread