Attaching sails with brass rings

[OldeManToad]

Just wondering how folks here attach their sails with brass rings to a mast. I have done this on my OCCRE Albatros build and was not happy with result. There has to be an easier method. The instructions don't have you install these 8mm rings on the mast until after the masts have been constructed and cannot simply be slid onto mast. My method was to open the rings until the opening was big enough to fit around the mast. Then I made holes in the sail cloth and inserted rings in sail so that the gaps in the rings all faced away from the sail. I then slipped all the rings around the mast and crimped them close with pliers. This worked except the rings are no longer round and loose around the mast and cannot be easily moved up or down the mast. Is there a better way to do this? Is there a tool that lets you open and close brass rings while maintaining their shape? I also had problems when attaching sails to a stay with the smaller 3mm brass rings.

Here is a photo of some of the rings. See how some are not closed and they are misshapen. Any ideas on how to do this easier? Thanks.

 

[AllanKP69]

Just wondering how folks here attach their sails with brass rings to a mast. I have done this on my OCCRE Albatros build and was not happy with result.

As this is a fictional ship with no specific time period any kind of ring might work. On a real ship, wooden hoops were used, nothing like what OcCre designed. Making wooden rings is easy, See pic below that shows a spiral ready to cut into rings, and rings on a mast. When it is time to add the sail, it was tied with rope through grommets appropriately spaced in the luff and to corresponding rings. The rings do not go through the sail. Wooden mast rings were used for centuries, into the 20th century.
Allan


Fishing schooner wooden mast rings.

 

[AndyA]

Just wondering how folks here attach their sails with brass rings to a mast.

Cap'n Toad:
As Cap'n Allan suggests, brass rings don't do a good job of simulating mast hoops. In American practice, at least, hoops were made of thick strips of oak steamed or soaked and bent into rings. Rivets or lashings hold things together. Hoops for models can be made of wood per Cap'n Allan or strips of paper glued up (Kraft paper is a good choice because of the color). Another approach is to cut slices from brass tubing (K&S makes tubing in a variety of sizes). The photo is a Bugeye at 1:48 with hoops from brass tubing. The brass was darkened by dipping in gun bluing. Fair winds!

 

[Roger Pellett]

Kit manufacturers love brass, probably because it’s an easy way to give the kit a delux vibe. With the exception of guns for certain eras and nationalities, there is very little brass on real working vessels. It is too weak to be used for load bearing parts. Chain for example was iron, post c1870- steel.

Roger

 

[AllanKP69]

strips of paper glued up (Kraft paper is a good choice because of the color).

Great idea. Poster board/card stock can be a good choice depending on the scale.
Allan

 

[OldeManToad]

Good information from everyone. I guess my biggest takeaway is that whether you use wood rings or the brass ones (preferably darkened) that OCCRE provided, they do not pierce the sailcloth. Instead, I should have put the rings on the mast while possible, and then stitched the sail to the rings. I assume that would also apply to the smaller 3mm rings that connect sails to stay ropes.

 

[AllanKP69]

I assume that would also apply to the smaller 3mm rings that connect sails to stay ropes.

It depends on the era and ship. A lacing line was common until the mid 18th century when Rope grommets became common place. The rope grommets were set up the same way as the wooden hoops. In The Young Sea Officer's Sheet , Darcy Lever shows them rigged with rope bands (robands)similar to how square sails are bent to the yards. Rope grommets are easy to make but can be tedious work. Metal was never used in the days of sail for attaching sails to masts, yards, or stays, darkened or otherwise. I am guessing metal would not be that noticeable if flattened and used for hoops, but it will not look like rope grommets robands, or lacing. If you do go with metal for the hoops, if you slice off rings from a brass tube they are all the exact same diameter and look great when painted a wood tone. For more on making wooden hoops, there is a short tutorial here at SoS. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/tricks-of-the-trade.15492/page-2#post-412604 post #35

 

[Kurt Konrath]

IF you decide to use the brass rings provided, as mentioned earlier, darken them first and add to mast before anything is added. They may be in the way for a while but better than not there when ready.

I was taught long time ago by the mentor when starting to read ahead in instructions to see what needs or can be done out of sequence to better the build. Often you will see something later in instructions you missed or may not have been in the instructions at all.

 

[AndyA]

The Ashley Book of Knots shows a rope grommet (3131), a wood mast hoop (3132), and a galvanized iron hoop (3133) as well as how they are seized to a sail. Fair winds!

 

[Bob Cleek]

What were they smoking? I've never seen anybody go to the trouble of making "mast hoop spirals" like that. I suppose they made them by bending a hot piece of strip wood around a mandril. Interesting, but the only advantage I can see in the method is that the hoops can be cut off and wrapped around a mast if one lacked the foresight to place the rings on the mast before they added mast fittings, etc., that made sliding intact rings onto the mast. Gluing them together neatly is going to be a tricky thing, though.

The easiest way to fabricate mast hoops is to take a clear plank of suitable wood species (pine, poplar, etc. are fine) and with a sharp plane shave long shavings off the edge of the plank. Wrap a piece of wax paper or plastic wrap around a mandril with the diameter of the size hoops you want to make. Then take a suitable length of shaving, apply PVA adhesive to one side of the shaving and then coil the shaving tightly around the mandril, one layer on top of the other, until the stacked layers of the shaving are a little bit thicker than the hoops you want to make. Secure each laid up lamination of a shaving with a rubber band. Let the PVA harden. (If you have a lathe you can mount the mandril on, sanding and parting are a piece of cake. if not, they're still easy enough.)

Once the wide laminated shaving rings are "dry," sand the outsides of the shaving rings until the shaving rings are uniformly thick. Then "part off" each ring using a utility knife, jeweler's saw, or whatever. Slide the parted rings off the mandril. Remove any residual material stuck to the inside of the rings and sand the edges of the hoops to round them a little bit. Stain the hoops as may be desired. Slide the hoops onto the mast.

The resulting hoops will be perfect miniatures of mast hoops and very strong. Lash the sail to the hoops.

 

[AllanKP69]

What were they smoking? I've never seen anybody go to the trouble of making "mast hoop spirals" like that.

They is me, and I was not smoking anything. This was the method I found best for my own models and only offered it up as an alternative. Did you look at the
https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/tricks-of-the-trade.15492/page-2#post-412604 post #35

Gluing them together neatly is going to be a tricky thing, though.

Not in my experience. BUT, if the builder prefers to finish them and add to the mast beforehand, there is no reason not to do it that way. I have done both with the same success.
Allan

 

[Bob Cleek]

They is me, and I was not smoking anything. This was the method I found best for my own models and only offered it up as an alternative. Did you look at the
https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/tricks-of-the-trade.15492/page-2#post-412604 post #35

No, I hadn't seen that post. It does look good, but it looked hard. Less so in the context of the referenced post, though. I was joking about the smoking reference. Sometimes humor doesn't translate well in online posts. Sorry about that!

 

[AllanKP69]

Sometimes humor doesn't translate well in online posts. Sorry about that!

No worries.

 

[Kramer]

Kit manufacturers love brass, probably because it’s an easy way to give the kit a delux vibe. With the exception of guns for certain eras and nationalities, there is very little brass on real working vessels. It is too weak to be used for load bearing parts. Chain for example was iron, post c1870- steel.

Roger

Belay pins would not be brass, but wood? Correct? And if they're wood, would they be darkened by tar, or more natural wood color?

 

[AndyA]

And if they're wood, would they be darkened by tar, or more natural wood color?

Cap'n Kramer:
Depends. Belaying pins are used for running rigging, which, generally speaking, is not tarred like standing rigging. However, the color of pins depends on the wood they are made of and the grunge they pick up, including that from dirty hands. In the photo you can see that all the pins have some grunge and one in the middle is belaying a darker (tarred?) line and looks to be stained by that. Fair winds!

 

[Roger Pellett]

Belaying pins were such a useful invention that they continued to be used in an unaltered form into modern times. They were used to belay cargo handling gear on steamships well into the 1900’s. The original builders drawings (1909) for the Great Lakes Freighter that I am building specifies “standard belaying pins” for topping lifts on cargo booms.

What did change was material. Later in the 1800’s iron, and later again, steel belaying pins made an appearance. Often galvanized. Brass? Possibly on some late Victorian and Edwardian high end yachts but not on humble working vessels.

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

Note also that although some yachts may have had varnished belaying pins, generally wooden belaying pins, cleats, cavels, and bits, anything that a line was belayed to, would not have had any finish on the wood. The friction of the rough bare wood surface is superior for holding the belayed line. Earlier wrought iron belaying pins were painted black or simply left bare. Later steel belaying pins were hot-dipped galvanized and usually painted for the sake of appearance. A lot depends upon the period. Belaying pins have been around for a good long time.