Black Swan

[AllanKP69]

Maybe Alan can give me a hand with that.

Not sure which Alan/Allan/Allen you mean. My apologies if it was meant for someone else......

I realize you are building a fictional vessel but as you are staying with the 17th and early 18th century, the carriages were bed type which were nothing like those for Armstrongs, and Blomefields. I only have a few pictures on my laptop while we are traveling so apologize for not being able to provide more information.

Assuming you want something from English ships circa 1650-1710


The carriage design below is from the HMS London wreck 1665 Carriages in 1725 were still bed type but a little different.


The Commonwealth barrel pattern would be most appropriate.



As to dimensions I have nothing specific but once you have the length of the barrel, be it the designated or the overall length, the carriage dimensions can be figured out pretty closely. I would be delighted to help as much as I can IF you wish.

Allan

 

[GIG1810]

Not sure which Alan/Allan/Allen you mean. My apologies if it was meant for someone else......

I realize you are building a fictional vessel but as you are staying with the 17th and early 18th century, the carriages were bed type which were nothing like those for Armstrongs, and Blomefields. I only have a few pictures on my laptop while we are traveling so apologize for not being able to provide more information.

Assuming you want something from English ships circa 1650-1710


The carriage design below is from the HMS London wreck 1665 Carriages in 1725 were still bed type but a little different.

View attachment 543335
The Commonwealth barrel pattern would be most appropriate.

View attachment 543336

As to dimensions I have nothing specific but once you have the length of the barrel, be it the designated or the overall length, the carriage dimensions can be figured out pretty closely. I would be delighted to help as much as I can IF you wish.

Allan

Hello AlanKP69

Please accept my apologies. Of course I meant my esteemed AlanKP69. I just forgot the KP69. Mea culpa, sir.

Thank you for your reply, even though you are travelling. I didn't want to disturb your holiday either. You are right, I am building a fantasy ship. Of course, I want to incorporate as many parts as possible, such as the rigging and planking, that actually existed at the time. I was unsure about the guns. Especially as this gun carriage existed. I took the artistic liberty of using the gun carriages from 1780 onwards. I would say that the Athena survived into the early 18th century. This was because she was sailed by an excellent captain and crew, was always in absolutely excellent condition and was way ahead of her time. As a result, she sent many a pirate pack to Poseidon with bag and baggage.

I am always delighted that you give me such excellent support and that I can benefit from your wealth of knowledge. Thank you very much for your support.

Please excuse my poor English, but I can only communicate via the English translator. I speak and understand English, but I am absolutely terrible at grammar ... Thank you for your understanding.

 

[AllanKP69]

Mea culpa,

Nihil est my friend
You are like many people outside the US as you have an understanding, speaking and reading multiple languages and should be proud, For me, I try with my French and Italian, but in the end rely on my wife for French and Google for Italian and every other language

Allan

 

[GIG1810]

What would we be without our women my friend......

 

[AllanKP69]

What would we be without our women my friend.

Lonely!

 

[Namabiiru]

Lonely!

And messy…

 

[GIG1810]

Ahoy sailors,

Yes, you're right, without our wives we'd be poor.
No one to tell us,
- Why don't you tidy up?
- Take out the rubbish?
- like on the couch again?
-There's still so much to do. What are you doing ...??

All of this makes us smile and we always say: "Yes, my darling, it's done ... Because we'll do anything for a smile on our loved one's face ...

Remember: Happy wife, happy life ...

 

[GIG1810]

Not sure which Alan/Allan/Allen you mean. My apologies if it was meant for someone else......

I realize you are building a fictional vessel but as you are staying with the 17th and early 18th century, the carriages were bed type which were nothing like those for Armstrongs, and Blomefields. I only have a few pictures on my laptop while we are traveling so apologize for not being able to provide more information.

Assuming you want something from English ships circa 1650-1710


The carriage design below is from the HMS London wreck 1665 Carriages in 1725 were still bed type but a little different.

View attachment 543335
The Commonwealth barrel pattern would be most appropriate.

View attachment 543336

As to dimensions I have nothing specific but once you have the length of the barrel, be it the designated or the overall length, the carriage dimensions can be figured out pretty closely. I would be delighted to help as much as I can IF you wish.

Allan

Hello AlanKP69,

I have a question regarding the cannon and the gun carriage. I found this picture and wanted to ask if this is such a cannon from the end of the 16th century. It was declared as such. Could it be correct?

Thank you very much.....

 

[Namabiiru]

Not sure about the barrel, but there is no way the carriage is accurate. The barrel is resting on the front of the carriage so it can’t be lowered to a proper angle, and the trunion is not set into the carriage sides. I doubt that flimsy bracket would survive more than a handful of firings.

 

[AllanKP69]

Hi Gunther,

I have no experience with 16th century English ordnance, but did find the below which are supposedly 16th century designs. Is there a photo of the cipher that is more clear? 16th century cannon, if they had a cipher, would be Henricus Rex (HR) with a Tudor crown or Elizabetha Regina (ER) with a crown. In addition to the observation by Namabiiru I THINK the carriage shown would not be correct for any ship of any era as the trucks have metal bands which was indicative of use on land, not on wooden decks. The cap squares are wrong as well along with the axles. Regarding the barrel there is a ring around the cascabel which was only done on Armstrong and Armstrong Frederick pattern cannon in the 18th century if they were English. Do you have the link where this was declared to be 16th century? Did they say if it was English or from a different nation?

Allan

 

[GIG1810]

Hi Gunther,

I have no experience with 16th century English ordnance, but did find the below which are supposedly 16th century designs. Is there a photo of the cipher that is more clear? 16th century cannon, if they had a cipher, would be Henricus Rex (HR) with a Tudor crown or Elizabetha Regina (ER) with a crown. In addition to the observation by Namabiiru I THINK the carriage shown would not be correct for any ship of any era as the trucks have metal bands which was indicative of use on land, not on wooden decks. The cap squares are wrong as well along with the axles. Regarding the barrel there is a ring around the cascabel which was only done on Armstrong and Armstrong Frederick pattern cannon in the 18th century if they were English. Do you have the link where this was declared to be 16th century? Did they say if it was English or from a different nation?

Allan

View attachment 543854

Hello AlanKP69,

I already thought that it couldn't be due to logic and physics alone. However, I wasn't sure, so I asked again. Thank you very much for the effort.

The gun carriages have not left me alone and I am still torn as to what I should do.
Should I build the original mounts or use the mounts I have already built?

Alan, could you perhaps give me a helping hand and research the mounts that would be suitable for me for the early to mid-17th century? Unfortunately, I can't find anything suitable on the Internet and I don't have any specialised books with literary references. Thank you very much in advance for your efforts ...

Best regards

 

[AllanKP69]

The only reliable drawing I have is based on the wreck of the HMS London 1665. Caruana MAY have earlier ones in volume I of The History of English Sea Ordnance, but I only have volume II, which starts in 1715.

Have you looked at the photos from the Mary Rose museum? Would this design be more of what you are looking to do? Lavery comments that the truck and bed carriage became standard in England by the middle of the 16th century and some of the Mary Rose carriages seem to confirm this. There appears to have been other types of gun patterns and carriages as well so it can be confusing. From what I could find some of the wooden gun carriages recovered from the wreck are original. Finding relatively in-tact wooden carriages is pretty rare.

If you are OK with a truck and bed carriage, if you wish, I would be happy to put together drawings with dimensions if you can let me know what pattern gun, caliber, length, and scale.

Allan

 

[AllanKP69]

Just thought of this as a follow up. If you want the gun pattern to be like those in the photos of theMary Rose guns making these would be pretty easy IF you are ok with cast resin. Turn one on a lathe and add the cipher and other items, them make a silicone mold. Then you can cast as many guns as you want. I have found the molds I have made will last for a few dozen guns before degrading, so if you want more just use the master to make a new mold.

See the posts here at SoS on making cannon and it describes this method along with others. For me, I would give someone a 2D drawing and ask to have a 3D STL made then have them printed in resin. My problem is I am at the pre-school or maybe kindergarten level for 3D work so have had to farm it out.

https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/making-cannon.14545/ Scroll to post #4

Allan

 

[GIG1810]

Hey AlanKP69,

thank you so much. Many thanks for your efforts. I'll sit down on Sunday and see what I can write to you about the details.

Thank you very much!

 

[AllanKP69]

Looking forward to your note. Gunther!
Allan

 

[GIG1810]

Hey Alan,

I tried to do a quick search on the calibre of the 12-pounders. I only found the length: approx. 2.76 metres in original size. In my 1 : 75 scale the total gun barrel length is 2.6 mm. It shouldn't be any longer, otherwise it wouldn't fit on my middle deck. I don't think even OcCre's scale is correct at all. But I'll have to see how I can best manage with it. The calibre was given as ((12 pounder, calibre 11.4cm in inches: 4.48)). Unfortunately, I can't say whether this is correct! I have also included mounts from the Soleil Royal. I think they looked something like this. The gun carriage of the Mary Rose is, I think, much too old. I think I'll go with the Commonwealth guns as 12-pounders. I hope this helps you a bit.

Many thanks for your efforts and best regards


These are the cannons and mounts from the Soleil Royal ... beautiful.....!!!

 

[AllanKP69]

12-pounders. I only found the length: approx. 2.76 metres in original size.

12 pounders came in various lengths. One would be a designated length of 9 feet, but that is from the muzzle to the breech, not the overall length. The overall length was longer than the designated length for English guns. For this one it would be closer to 111" It may have varied slightly for different patterns but the Borgards are below as an example. I have not yet found any aftermarket supplier that gets this right, but I doubt very many would notice the difference at your scale so go with what you are happy with.



For the carriages, the bed style should be OK up until about 1725 on British ships similar to those on the left of the drawings you posted.


Allan

 

[GIG1810]

Hey folks,

I've kept you in suspense long enough with my dinghy and haven't posted any pictures for a long time.

Well, now it's finished. I present to you my Athena dinghy.

I wanted to show it without sails and rigging first. I will have the other accessories, ropes, anchors, sails and oars ready next week and I will present it to you then. I hope you enjoy the pictures and are happy for me.

The dinghy consists of 187 parts and I carved everything myself by hand and also burnished and bent the metal parts myself. When I say that the Athena is my first wooden boat, I think that's true. Or does my little dinghy also count as a wooden boat....????

I hope you like the pictures and I look forward to your comments....

Best regards


P.S. There is also a short film about it. Unfortunately I can't upload it. Maybe someone can help me how to do this without it always crashing when loading?

 

[mellpapa]

Hey folks,

I've kept you in suspense long enough with my dinghy and haven't posted any pictures for a long time.

Well, now it's finished. I present to you my Athena dinghy.

I wanted to show it without sails and rigging first. I will have the other accessories, ropes, anchors, sails and oars ready next week and I will present it to you then. I hope you enjoy the pictures and are happy for me.

The dinghy consists of 187 parts and I carved everything myself by hand and also burnished and bent the metal parts myself. When I say that the Athena is my first wooden boat, I think that's true. Or does my little dinghy also count as a wooden boat....????

I hope you like the pictures and I look forward to your comments....

Best regards


P.S. There is also a short film about it. Unfortunately I can't upload it. Maybe someone can help me how to do this without it always crashing when loading?

View attachment 544555

View attachment 544558

View attachment 544559

View attachment 544560

View attachment 544561

View attachment 544562

View attachment 544563

View attachment 544565

View attachment 544556

View attachment 544557

View attachment 544564

Günther, hello.
This boat is incredibly well-made.
Your craftsmanship is top-notch.
You're the ultimate pervert (with respect)!!

 

[GIG1810]

Günther, hello.
This boat is incredibly well-made.
Your craftsmanship is top-notch.
You're the ultimate pervert (with respect)!!

Hey Mellpapa,

that's too much honour. I'm just a small, humble pervert ... but you are a master!!!
Thank you so much for the kind words. I'm blushing already!