Clipper Ship Build Thoughts

[rwiederrich]

I Love CLippers

We will be kindered spirits then. Apaart from building the expected Constitution, and Alabama....I have spent the last 50+ years only building clippers.

On my short list: I have not started any..
1. The YA..
2. MS Flying Fish

Generally, the Cutty Sark and the ones you named are the typical clippers folks tend to build. I lean on building clippers nobody or company offers or builds. I built a 1/128 scale Great Republic, spent 10 years researching before I built the Glory of the Seas, and currently I am building the Staghound. The latter 2 required the research help of master historian and author Michael Mjelde...along with my friend and researcher Rich Jones and help from my European friend Vlad. Research and building generally unmodeled clippers is my *Thing* these days.

Rob

 

[Finglas]

I see and half (more than half) is fun in research. At those scales for wood you are using Castello or Box or something hard and fine grained right?
This interests me greatly indeed. I like your hobby.. I also like astronomy... but that is a different topic all together.
I will look up the articles on NRG journals and read.

I am debating on getting a full sized bandsaw though.. good for scratch and whacking up material to use.
Guy

 

[rwiederrich]

Rob,
Do you build exclusively 1/96 or 1/8=1' ? I am thinking of the POB route.. If you look at YA POB it is quite something to see.. he used 2x4 stock to put spacers in..
Guy

I build all my clippers...with the exception of the Great Republic, in 1/96. I want them all to be in scale to one another...for comparative reasons. If I had built the GR in 1/96 scale it would nearly be 5ft long, No room for that! Again...ED T's YA was designed as an *Exploded* view model...showing off the design and construction of YA. I prefer NOT to go to that extreme in construction, but rather in function.

Rob

 

[rwiederrich]

I see and half (more than half) is fun in research. At those scales for wood you are using Castello or Box or something hard and fine grained right?
This interests me greatly indeed. I like your hobby.. I also like astronomy... but that is a different topic all together.
I will look up the articles on NRG journals and read.

I am debating on getting a full sized bandsaw though.. good for scratch and whacking up material to use.
Guy

I generally use a fine grained wood. I'm your unorthodox model builder...I use any material at my disposal to build my models...be it plastic, wood, metals, acrylics, compounds, waxes, papers. You name it...I'll use it if it will do the job. Cuz everything is getting covered in paint anyway. Research is the foundation of any quality build...IF you want to be historical. If you want to be *artistic*, then do as you will.
Astronomy is my second hobby as well.....well making telescopes is my second hobby in conjunction with Astronomy.
I encourage you to check out my build logs.

Rob

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Guy,

My family hails from Braynefield in Caroline Co. I suspect that your "sticks" are in danger of being DC bedroom communities like at Bowling Green/Woodford.
My condo was in east Oceanview. The area was up scaled and is now East Beach. A captain of the Silversides has the condo under mine.

I think that Rob builds POB - Castelo would be limited to deck furniture.
Clippers are big - Even at 1:96 they are big.
There are dues that must be paid (dues = skills and experience). You can start small - Bugeyes/log canoes/sloops/schooners for Bay fishermen - or jump in with a clipper. Either way, you have to put in the time. The danger with starting big is that when you hit the inevitable sandbar and lose your muse - the big vessel will loom so large that you abandon the whole project. A small craft will not seem as imposing. You have to not see the project as one whole thing. See it as what it really is - a whole lot of very small sub unit models.
Rob is spot-on about which clipper you should choose. What is the point of building a ship that is a kit or a monograph?
Another me-too is about as boring as it gets. Find a neglected, ignored, forgotten subject - HIC has more than a few as plans at S.I. David MacGreggor has a bunch more. If you like newer composite or steel Underhill has bunches that no one builds any more.

Milling your own stock: You are not going 1:48 or 1:60 so you can be fine with 4x4 rough stock.
Get a quality 10" rip blade. If you want to set your economic partner off like a Roman candle - Infinity has a very thin (1/16" kerf) 10" rip blade - it only costs $200.
It will not be happy , but your benchtop bandsaw can also resaw as long as the stock is not too wide. See if Bandsaw Direct can get you a Lenox Diemaster 2 bimetal blade that fits your machine. It lasts about 80-90% as long as a carbide and has minimal set so less thickness sanding. https://www.bandsawbladesdirect.com/lenox-diemaster-2-bi-metal-band-saw-blades

Thickness sanding - big drill press - largest diameter- longest height sanding drum that you can find. You need a good fence.
A Magfence may be quick and dirty - if the drill press table is large enough to mount it. https://carterproducts.com/band-saw-products/band-saw-magfence
Vertical is not intuitive for thicknessing but it can work- the stock must have a flat edge - another tablesaw cut.

PoB vs POF vs WL carved.
I just do not see that clippers make for a good POF display. They were all about business/speed/efficiency/profit.
They were mean lean racing machines - their hulls should display that feature.

I do not see how I could possibly have more disdain, contempt, derision for PoB as a method. Before it is sheathed -it is an intolerable insult to the vessel being replicated - so hideous! - But I see the utility with using it.
Plywood should be avoided. MDF is beyond the Pale - pure synthetic crap. Pine or Yellow Poplar. Make the central spine two or three layers of your own homemade plywood. Overlap. If it is three layers, the middle can be recessed. There would be a pocket/slot for the proper keel. The molds solid wood - thick - 3/8"-1/2". Loft more molds than bare minimum. Pine and Yellow Poplar are much more pleasing to shape than plywood.

The better choice is WL-carved. Use Yellow Poplar- it is a dream to shape. As many layers as can be had. No planking.
Excellent base for paint.

No real copper. The paint is probably perilously close to being in scale plate thickness by itself. And 1:96 - no way individual plates could be discerned - unless your nose is touching it.

 

[Finglas]

Rob,
Understood about the exploded view.. 1/96 makes much sense to me. It is the start of the real minature scale.
Good for comparison reasons as well..

 

[Finglas]

Guy,

My family hails from Braynefield in Caroline Co. I suspect that your "sticks" are in danger of being DC bedroom communities like at Bowling Green/Woodford.
My condo was in east Oceanview. The area was up scaled and is now East Beach. A captain of the Silversides has the condo under mine.

I think that Rob builds POB - Castelo would be limited to deck furniture.
Clippers are big - Even at 1:96 they are big.
There are dues that must be paid (dues = skills and experience). You can start small - Bugeyes/log canoes/sloops/schooners for Bay fishermen - or jump in with a clipper. Either way, you have to put in the time. The danger with starting big is that when you hit the inevitable sandbar and lose your muse - the big vessel will loom so large that you abandon the whole project. A small craft will not seem as imposing. You have to not see the project as one whole thing. See it as what it really is - a whole lot of very small sub unit models.
Rob is spot-on about which clipper you should choose. What is the point of building a ship that is a kit or a monograph?
Another me-too is about as boring as it gets. Find a neglected, ignored, forgotten subject - HIC has more than a few as plans at S.I. David MacGreggor has a bunch more. If you like newer composite or steel Underhill has bunches that no one builds any more.

Milling your own stock: You are not going 1:48 or 1:60 so you can be fine with 4x4 rough stock.
Get a quality 10" rip blade. If you want to set your economic partner off like a Roman candle - Infinity has a very thin (1/16" kerf) 10" rip blade - it only costs $200.
It will not be happy , but your benchtop bandsaw can also resaw as long as the stock is not too wide. See if Bandsaw Direct can get you a Lenox Diemaster 2 bimetal blade that fits your machine. It lasts about 80-90% as long as a carbide and has minimal set so less thickness sanding. https://www.bandsawbladesdirect.com/lenox-diemaster-2-bi-metal-band-saw-blades

Thickness sanding - big drill press - largest diameter- longest height sanding drum that you can find. You need a good fence.
A Magfence may be quick and dirty - if the drill press table is large enough to mount it. https://carterproducts.com/band-saw-products/band-saw-magfence
Vertical is not intuitive for thicknessing but it can work- the stock must have a flat edge - another tablesaw cut.

PoB vs POF vs WL carved.
I just do not see that clippers make for a good POF display. They were all about business/speed/efficiency/profit.
They were mean lean racing machines - their hulls should display that feature.

I do not see how I could possibly have more disdain, contempt, derision for PoB as a method. Before it is sheathed -it is an intolerable insult to the vessel being replicated - so hideous! - But I see the utility with using it.
Plywood should be avoided. MDF is beyond the Pale - pure synthetic crap. Pine or Yellow Poplar. Make the central spine two or three layers of your own homemade plywood. Overlap. If it is three layers, the middle can be recessed. There would be a pocket/slot for the proper keel. The molds solid wood - thick - 3/8"-1/2". Loft more molds than bare minimum. Pine and Yellow Poplar are much more pleasing to shape than plywood.

The better choice is WL-carved. Use Yellow Poplar- it is a dream to shape. As many layers as can be had. No planking.
Excellent base for paint.

No real copper. The paint is probably perilously close to being in scale plate thickness by itself. And 1:96 - no way individual plates could be discerned - unless your nose is touching it.

I will PM you a message. What you say.. means a lot to me.

 

[Roger Pellett]

Milling your own wood:

There are any good sources for ship model building
Wood:

Trees. Not kidding! I have a large stash of Pear. A colleague at work cut down a tree and gave me the logs. I found a backwoods saw mill willing to saw them into planks (many mills won’t sawing logs from residential areas due to risk of embedded metal). Look around for people clearing land. Orchards?

Hardwood Saw mills: JAAGER and you seem to have a handle on ones in your area.

Home Improvement store/ lumberyard Bargain Bin: My favorite for quality pine. These are crop ends that contain some sort of defect; knot, crack, etc. Rather than degrade an entire length of wood, the store cuts off a 2ft piece with the defect. The crop with the defect is sold in the Bargain Bin. Often very wide boards 10”, 12” with straight grain away from the center and the defect.

Used wood: I have two seats from old boats. One is nice mahogany (good for ship model cases). The other is a very fine grained softwood. I believe Sitka Spruce. Look around!

Specialty Wood Dealers: Among others, SOS Member Dave Stevens’ wife owns The Lumberyard they sponsor SOS. They stock classic ship modeling woods.

You clearly have the tools to mill your own wood and the skills to do so. Try milling some before shelling $800++ for that full sized bandsaw.

Roger

 

[rwiederrich]

I do not see how I could possibly have more disdain, contempt, derision for PoB as a method. Before it is sheathed -it is an intolerable insult to the vessel being replicated - so hideous! - But I see the utility with using it.

POB is far from romantic......Who can complain when looking at the hull of a magnificent clipper coming to life on her way? The mastery of construction and alignment. MMMMM. On the other hand, as you have pointed out, the utility of POB makes for faster construction, when one is really trying to cover up the framing with strakes....and that, again, with paint. The end result is my goal.....not getting there. My crude Montra requires me to work fast.....since, I'm generally a lazy modeler. And unlike the purist...I don't like hiding months of laborious wood work under decking and planking. I want to hide the mistakes...misalignments, plastics and repurposed items under a clean coat of appropriate paint. Another closely held Montra of mine.....Paint covers a multitude of sins.

From My youth, I always wanted to be a purist model builder. My lazy streak, helped me find another way. Giving the impression of purity.

Rob

 

[rwiederrich]

1/96 makes much sense to me. It is the start of the real minature scale.

Big enough to permit quite a bit of fine detail and small enough to fit in your space. Scale comparison is important to me.....cuz when visitors come a callin, many recognize the Cutty Sark and comment on her beauty and size....but when they see the comparison of a British clipper to that of an much larger American clipper...they are quite moved and astonished. Since there are no American clippers left to compare...folks fail to see the significance in their differences. Size and purpose, namely. Here is a picture comparing Glory of the Seas to Cutty Sark....both 1/96.


Rob

 

[Roger Pellett]

I’m an all of the above scratch ship model. I fit the technique to the model. I have built an Hahn technique POF model that I’m happy with, several carved hull models aka “solid hull” although none are solid, and am currently building a model upside down on molds.

I have never built a POB model but am daydreaming about a hybrid technique that combines Solid hull and POB. I have had good success building 1:32 small craft and these boats often don’t have the heavy sawn frames that facilitate classic POF construction.

Like Rob, I mostly concerned with results.

Roger

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

purist

To me, that word has negative and strawman connotations. Elite is another strawman word.

Honoring tradition as closely as practical and having authenticity in means as well as end as a benchmark is just another set of personal rules to follow. No easy label for this.

We are on exactly the same page when it comes to avoiding the bother of replicating anything not visible on a fully planked topside and fully planked deck. I know that there were beams and carlings and ledges and knees. I just am not interested in seeing them. The officers had to live somewhere, but that was their interest, not mine. The same with the galley stove, curious but mundane and beside the point.
I prefer warships from before the Industrial Age and the Age of Efficiency removed individual style and elegance.
I would not choose them if my life was involved, if getting home alive and with all my parts were the stakes.
Even worse, to me, the arty is only an unnecessary distraction and is to be left off.

 

[rwiederrich]

To me, that word has negative and strawman connotations. Elite is another strawman word.

Honoring tradition as closely as practical and having authenticity in means as well as end as a benchmark is just another set of personal rules to follow. No easy label for this.

I suppose my experience with *Purists* is that of a modeler who recognizes wood as the only medium used in constructing wooden ships...and that constructing them must follow actual practices....ie.....POF...and any construction of features or furniture that was originally made from wood. From this definition....I'm a lunatic....using anything and everything....then covering it all in a coat of paint and weathering media. In my assessment...the word is Neither negative or a strawman.
It is a practice. I'll skip the middle man when Ever I confront him. I'm after the end product. MVA

 

[Finglas]

All here;
Thanks for all the info on Clipper ships. Rob I am indebted to your openness and honesty thanks to a modeller that reminds me of Philip Reed who also used sundry material.
Ross, thanks for your direct and valuable information (especiallly on milling). Jaager thanks for your responses as well, I would love to see each of your work (I have seen much of Robs work). I, for one can only show my lack of anything but a misshapen model hull of the blienose.. and a few sailing RC Boats I made from scratch.. all 45-50" long..

I am looking to occupy my time and fingers.. I am a ham (I did CW for many years and fixed, made many radios) and an Astronomer with multiple scopes and a profound interest in all things Celestial Navigation. https://www.qrz.com/db/N1GMM

Now to figure a model to build.... actually build and learn from. I will try to do "something" different..

Guy

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

It is a practice. I'll skip the middle man when Ever I confront him. I'm after the end product.

For personal stuff - we pays our money and takes our chances.

There is no academy or board of the chosen to pass judgement. There is no profit in being the model to follow.
Objectively, it only matters if the model is for sale. And even then, it only matters what the buyer believes it to be and is willing to pay for.

Now, if you were selling a kit and including MDF and 3D printed plastic and cheesy wood species because it was easier and less expensive, but your advertising copy presented it as authentic and high quality - there might be a bit of debate about ethics.

For us old times and our personal choices- it is a duel using pool noodles.

 

[rwiederrich]

For personal stuff - we pays our money and takes our chances.

There is no academy or board of the chosen to pass judgement. There is no profit in being the model to follow.
Objectively, it only matters if the model is for sale. And even then, it only matters what the buyer believes it to be and is willing to pay for.

Now, if you were selling a kit and including MDF and 3D printed plastic and cheesy wood species because it was easier and less expensive, but your advertising copy presented it as authentic and high quality - there might be a bit of debate about ethics.

For us old times and our personal choices- it is a duel using pool noodles.

Any real disclaimer should read, *Made from natural and manmade material*. I agree...in this hobby there is no board of accountability, however, I have entered model contests, were strict guidance to materials used in fabrication has been a qualifying factor to authenticity of established historical practices. But going in, one knew the expectations. High quality doesn't necessarily equate to wood structures only....and many wood only fixtures look less authentic than those printed.

I have several friends who are so adept when using their 3D printers at making components....that they are far superior to what can be created with more common materials. It almost make me want to give up scratch building all together.

Rob

 

[Roger Pellett]

A suggestion: We have a school for Ship Model building here on SOS. I just started a class scratch building a New Haven Sharpie. This is an easy model as the hull form is simple. I am going through the process from doing basic research to producing an exhibition quality model. If you would like to build a model I’ll be happy to send you a copy of the plans. Otherwise you’re free to just watch.

Roger

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I have several friends who are so adept when using their 3D printers at making components....that they are far superior to what can be created with more common materials. It almost make me want to give up scratch building all together.

Laser cutting is sorta kinda tilting towards...
But 3D printing is flatout just assembly.
The direction of kits is heading for their being just assembly and finishing - the same as with plastic kits - except that there is some wood in the mix. This appears to be the popular goal. Here it seems that the final product is the only thing of importance.

On the other hand - if it is another game - if there are limiting personal rules - such as:
only materials available to the 17thC. and 18thC. model teams are allowed - except for PVA - and hot pot hide glue can even exclude PVA - but not yet. Any machine is allowed - way back when: it was a team of specialists and scutwork apprentices - so AC is fair when it is one person.. Under these sort of rules, it does not matter what 3D printing can do - injection molded polystyrene has had us beat for detail for half a century anyway, it is how close can you come under handicap.

My perspective is: 1:96 is miniature scale. Miniature scale is as much illusion as it is pure replication. The cellular structure limits what wood can simulate. Often it is beyond the ability of wood. It looks to me, based on your rules, it is difficult to see how it could be done better. 1:96 makes it necessary for there to be more leeway in materials.
You have earned your rank and you probably have the scars to mark the climb.