Drenthe 1637

Antonio Fangueiro

Antonio Fangueiro

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Hi everybody. Finally I can be back to this forum after a few years. I have some builds material to post here, namely the finished 1763 Sherbourne, a Bermuda Sloop ongoing, the ongoing "Queen Anne´s Revenge" of circa 1710, based on the elements we know of La Concorde de Toulon and I started recently the investigations on the title of this thread, the Drenthe (or Drente) circa 1637, a yacht purchased from the Admiralty of Rotterdam with funds of the province of Drenthe during the 80 Years War.
A great detailed description of this ship´s actions are described here http://oud-schoonebeek.nl/index.php...ldaten-in-drenthe/255-drenthes-strijd-ter-zee

I search and study all images I find of the period and these early frigates without the quarter galleries keep fascinating me so I decided to study them and build one. We have its dimensions, so from there I can work on, but my question to anyone who may help, is about the coat of arms we see in the taffrail.
In the image below, the Drenthe is the first from the left and this is the detail of the arms. I still couldn´t find any exact match to any province or related that looks like it but I keep on searching.
Is anyone able to give me some references on how to decipher this enigma?
Best regards to all builders.
P.S. The fluyt on the far right is also going to be a build :).

1721775260718.png

Willem_van_de_Velde_-_Seascape_with_Dutch_Men-of-War_including_the_Drenthe_and_the_Prince_Fred...jpg
 
First of all a warm welcome back here in our forum.
So we would be very interested in your project and off course highly interested in this one
Did one of the de Veldes painted this ship once more or is it the only painting or sketch the Drenthe is shown?
Maybe something in this book?

Book review - Book Review: "The Willem van de Velde drawings in the Boymans-van Beuningen Museum" - 3 Volume Box

Book Review: The Willem van de Velde drawings in the Boymans-van Beuningen Museum MUSEUM BOYMANS-VAN BEUNINGEN Foundation Rotterdam (1. Januar 1979) Box / Slipcase with 3 Volumes in English One Textvolume with 187 Pages and two Volumes with plates with 357 pages (historic events) and 335...
shipsofscale.com

WE have some specialists of dutch ship building in our forum, f.e. @Maarten (he has a Van de Velde in his kitchen !!!!), @Ab Hoving @-Waldemar- , @flying_dutchman2 (to mention only some) or others, which knows maybe more, but defintely they all will be interested in your research
 
I don’t have answers for you, but I will follow along with great interest. In addition to the above authorities, you might try contacting Herbert Thomesan at Artitec Modelbeau. He is also extremely knowledgeable about these mid-century Dutch ships.
 
Hi Uwe.

Thank you first of all for the important tips you gave. I did not know that book on the Velde drawings, for sure I will investigate it. It doesn´t matter how many years we search the internet, there is always someting else somewhere.
I know some (great) works from Mr. Hoving and flying_dutchman2. I will write to them 4 you mentioned and let´s see how it goes, because building the Drenthe seems to be a very rare enterprise :).

Regards,
Antonio
 
Hubac’s Historian said:
I don’t have answers for you, but I will follow along with great interest. In addition to the above authorities, you might try contacting Herbert Thomesan at Artitec Modelbeau. He is also extremely knowledgeable about these mid-century Dutch ships.
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Thank you very much for the hint. I know the excellent work from Artitec, specially in the Kaap Skil museum exposition, with so many beatifull ships and boats. A true inspiration for all lovers of these things.
 
Hi Antonio,

This is a very nice project, looking forward to your progress.
As discussed in our PM I have checked some Van de Velde drawings for the type side gallery construction on these smaller ships.
20240730_090007.jpg20240730_090002.jpg20240730_085919.jpg20240730_085910.jpg20240730_085839.jpg20240730_085830.jpg20240730_085620.jpg20240730_085611.jpg20240730_085556.jpg
 
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Maarten said:
Hi Antonio,

This is a very nice project, looking forward to your progress.
As discussed in our PM I have checked some Van de Velde drawings for the type side gallery construction on these smaller ships.
View attachment 461892View attachment 461893View attachment 461894View attachment 461895View attachment 461896View attachment 461897View attachment 461898View attachment 461899View attachment 461900
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Thank you Maarten for the research and images.
An important aspect of these ships besides the simpler galleries, is the very top of the taffrail. As seen in your first 3 ships, that top is always "open", usually with two big lions or fishes, but then the "Edam" has a closing "arch", like the "Drenthe".
I always look for patterns in things so that I get answers and in this taffrail top case, my investigation is to find out if this closing arch was for instance a "trademark" of a specific Admiralty, or a shipyard. For that I need to focus on identifying the ship names in some awesome battle images we have, like the one below at Scheveningen, with many of these ships. With that I can luckily find the "birthplace" of some of them.
De_slag_bij_Terheide_-_The_Battle_of_Schevening_-_August_10_1653_(Willem_van_de_Velde_I,_1657).jpg

Another curious thing is that the "Edam" was printed in reverse in the book :), as we find this ship for instance in this Velde work. Also the book puts these ships in "1866" :).
1722332803780.png
 
I don't think there was a rule about the top taffrail so expect this was up to the shipwright. The steps in the taffrail are called "gillingen" and these gillingen are decorated mostly with dolfins, warrior heads or other decorations.

Keep in mind that during battle often "schanskleden" were used, these are large pieces of cloth hung over the taffrail to hide the deck crew from the view of the enemy.

When you look for vessel names you can check the Van de Velde drawings. He made a lot of studies for his master works. In these studies he draw the fleet positions and wrote the vessel name below them. So if the drawings still excist you could possibly indentify individual ships.

The 1866 at the bottom of the drawing is not the year but a reference number of the museum. MB stands for Museum Boymans who has these drawings in their collection.
 
Hi all.
The "Drenthe" was a jacht of unknown origin, with an 88 feet gundeck length (about 25 metres).

«In the 17th century, jachts in the Netherlands varied in size, with smaller pleasure yachts typically ranging from 10 to 15 meters, while larger military or commercial jachts could be as long as 20 to 30 meters. Their dimensions and designs were tailored to the specific roles they played in Dutch society, from leisure activities to important maritime functions.»

So the "Drenthe" was purpose built for commercial or military use, and having been to Brazil in a couple of missions, oceanic voyages were no issue. There were hull differences to a frigate, but to which extent?
My question is if do you know of any drawing references of one of these big jachts and for their function, what changes would there be to a small pleasure jacht and a military frigate? Any comments appreciated to such "hybrid".
 
The word 'jacht' comes from the verb 'jagen', which means going fast (in this case). The fact that there were pleasure yachts did not have much to do with the yachts or frigates the admiralty used. They were a smaller charter of war ship, not meant to fight in the line, but for special projects and for keeping contact between fleets. Frigates could carry up to 40 guns.

Your left picture of 'Edam' was a rubbed copy. After Van de Velde finished one of his ship's portraits he rubbed another piece of paper over it to remove the excess of lead (or whatever he used to draw). That's why the picture appears to be mirrored.
 
In my eyes this is a 100 foot long frigate that returns from some apparent military encounter. It has been at sea for some time: the figure head is sawn off, (maybe shot off?) the mizzen is obviously repaired, the underwater body is fouled and the waist cloths still rigged. (Waist cloths are the heavy textile 'curtains' along the upper works to hide the crew for the enemy, mainly used in warships. The WIC was actually a bunch of pirates...
By the way, -frigate- and -yacht- are terms for the same sort of vessel. But frigates served the admiralties, yachts were mostly private vessels. It is debatable if the WIC was a private corporation with many of its staff well presented in the government.
 
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Ab Hoving said:
In my eyes this is a 100 foot long frigate that returns from some apparent military encounter. It has been at sea for some time: the figure head is sawn off, (maybe shot off?) the mizzen is obviously repaired, the underwater body is fouled and the waist cloths still rigged. (Waist cloths are the heavy textile 'curtains' along the upper works to hide the crew for the enemy, mainly used in warships. The WIC was actually a bunch of pirates...
By the way, -frigate- and -yacht- are terms for the same sort of vessel. But frigates served the admiralties, yachts were mostly private vessels. It is debatable if the WIC was a private corporation with many of its staff well presented in the government.
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Hi Ab.

Thanks for the comments as always. When I found this image, the title of it says: "Schepen_onder_de_kust_voor_anker_Een_jacht_van_de_West-Indische_Compagnievoor_anker_op_kalm_water". My assumption of a jacht came from here. Definetely not from the VOC, but from the WIC, my mistake.
Concerning difference between frigate and jacht, I spent these last many days researching as much as possible online for the main differences between them below the waterline. I just did not want to start building the "Drenthe" from the lines of a frigate without being sure. So on that I found for example this:

«In the 17th century, Dutch jachts were indeed known for their versatility and shallow drafts, but not all jachts were strictly flat-bottomed. While smaller jachts used in Dutch inland waters and coastal regions often had flat or slightly rounded bottoms, larger sea-going jachts—particularly those used for longer voyages, such as to Brazil or around Cape Horn—had more substantial designs suited for ocean sailing.

How Could Dutch Jachts Sail on Long Voyages?
  1. Adapted Hull Design:
    • Larger ocean-going jachts designed for long voyages were not purely flat-bottomed. They had a modified keel design, which, while shallower than that of deep-sea warships or frigates, still provided enough stability and seaworthiness for crossing oceans.
    • These jachts had a slightly deeper hull compared to smaller, coastal jachts, allowing them to maintain balance and handle rough seas more effectively.
  2. Versatility in Design:
    • Dutch jachts were highly versatile ships, often built with a combination of features to balance shallow-draft capabilities for coastal navigation and enough depth and weight distribution for ocean travel.»
 
Still some more data I found about frigates and jachts:

In the Dutch 17th century, frigates and jachts were both important ship types used for military purposes, but they had significant differences in their design, especially below the waterline. These differences were influenced by their intended roles—frigates were larger, more heavily armed warships, while jachts were smaller, faster, and more maneuverable vessels often used for reconnaissance, transport, or rapid response.

Key Differences Below the Waterline:​

  1. Hull Shape:
    • Frigate:
      • Deeper, fuller hull below the waterline.
      • Frigates had a deeper draft, meaning more of the hull sat underwater. This design provided greater stability, essential for carrying heavy armaments and withstanding rough seas on long voyages.
      • The hull of a frigate was more rounded and broad, offering more buoyancy and strength to carry cannons and cargo.
    • Jacht:
      • Shallower hull and narrower below the waterline.
      • Jachts had a shallow draft, allowing them to navigate in coastal and inland waters, where frigates would struggle. This also made jachts faster and more agile in shallow or confined waters.
      • The jacht’s hull was designed to minimize drag, making it more suitable for speed and maneuverability, but less stable in rough seas compared to a frigate.
  2. Draft:
    • Frigate:
      • Frigates typically had a deep draft (the portion of the ship that is submerged). This was necessary to support the weight of their armaments, crew, and provisions, and to provide better performance in open ocean conditions.
      • A deeper draft meant better seakeeping abilities, allowing frigates to remain stable during long voyages and naval engagements.
    • Jacht:
      • Jachts, especially those built for military use, had a shallow draft, allowing them to operate closer to shore or in rivers and harbors.
      • Their shallow draft made them faster and more maneuverable but less stable in rough or deep waters, limiting their effectiveness in open sea battles.
  3. Keel Design:
    • Frigate:
      • Frigates generally had a longer, deeper keel for increased stability and to help them maintain course during extended voyages. The keel's depth contributed to better handling in open seas, essential for a warship expected to operate far from land.
      • A deeper keel also allowed for better resistance against wind and waves, giving frigates the ability to hold their ground or chase enemy ships effectively.
    • Jacht:
      • Jachts had a shallower keel, optimized for quick, sharp turns and coastal navigation. The shallower keel allowed jachts to operate in areas where frigates would risk running aground.
      • The shallow keel, combined with the lighter build, gave jachts their characteristic speed and agility, though at the cost of stability and heavy load-bearing capacity.
  4. Reinforcement and Structure:
    • Frigate:
      • Below the waterline, frigates were more heavily reinforced, with thicker planking and stronger timbers to withstand the weight of cannons and the stresses of naval combat. The extra reinforcement added durability, especially in battle, where the hull needed to resist cannon fire.
    • Jacht:
      • Jachts were lighter below the waterline, built for speed rather than heavy-duty engagement. The lighter construction below the waterline meant they could not carry as much weight or withstand the same level of combat stress as frigates.
      • Military jachts were designed to be fast pursuit vessels, reconnaissance ships, or dispatch vessels, and thus did not need the same heavy reinforcement as frigates.
  5. Ballast and Load Capacity:
    • Frigate:
      • Frigates required significant ballast (usually stone or other heavy materials placed in the lower part of the hull) to stabilize the ship and compensate for the weight of cannons, provisions, and crew.
      • The heavier structure below the waterline allowed frigates to carry large armaments and provisions for extended campaigns.
    • Jacht:
      • Jachts required less ballast and were generally much lighter below the waterline, optimizing them for speed. They were not built to carry the same amount of armament or provisions as frigates and relied on agility rather than heavy firepower in combat scenarios.
 
Ab Hoving said:
I am most curious about thr source of this text. Any clue?
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The best online source I believe we have in the present days is the artificial inteligence, ChatGPT, because of its speed in crossing data. From where "the machine" gathers data, I did that question now and this is its answer:

My question: «What are the best reliable sources to search about the difference between a dutch 17th century frigate and a military or merchant jacht, at the level of the hull?»

ChatGPT said:​


To research the differences between a Dutch 17th-century frigate and a military or merchant jacht, particularly at the hull level, the following reliable sources are highly recommended:

1.​

  • "Dutch Warships in the Age of Sail 1600–1714" by J.R. Bruijn: This book provides a detailed examination of Dutch warships, including frigates, with specific information about hull construction, ship design, and naval architecture. It also compares different ship types like jachts and frigates.
  • "The Dutch Navy of the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries" by Jaap R. Bruijn: This book focuses on the technical and structural differences in Dutch naval ships, covering both frigates and jachts, and provides valuable insights into shipbuilding techniques at the hull level.
  • "The Dutch East India Company’s Shipbuilding: The Archaeological Study of Batavia and Other Seventeenth Century VOC Ships" by Wendy van Duivenvoorde: This book delves into the construction of VOC ships, including merchant vessels like jachts, offering details about hull design and comparisons to warships such as frigates.

2.​

  • Het Scheepvaartmuseum (National Maritime Museum), Amsterdam: The museum holds extensive collections of ship models, technical drawings, and historical documents on 17th-century Dutch naval and merchant ships. It provides valuable visual references and expert information on the differences in hull design between ship types.
  • Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam: The Rijksmuseum has a digital collection of 17th-century Dutch ship models, including frigates and jachts. Many of the exhibits include detailed notes on the hull design.

3.​

  • Maritime Heritage Netherlands (Maritiem Digitaal Nederland): This digital archive provides access to a variety of ship plans, drawings, and detailed studies of 17th-century Dutch ships, including both military and merchant vessels. You can find hull drawings of jachts, frigates, and other types of ships.
  • Dutch National Archives (Nationaal Archief): Contains original shipbuilding records, contracts, and ship designs from the 17th century, making it a good resource for understanding the structural differences between a jacht and a frigate at the hull level.

4.​

  • "Ships of the Dutch East India Company" by Charles Parker: This book looks at merchant vessels, including jachts, and explores the differences in ship design for military versus commercial purposes. Archaeological evidence is used to explain the structural characteristics, especially the hull.
  • Excavation Reports of Dutch Shipwrecks: Studies of Dutch shipwrecks from the 17th century (such as the Batavia or Zeewijk) often include detailed hull analyses, which help compare the construction of different ship types like jachts and frigates. These reports are typically published by maritime archaeologists and available through academic journals.

5.​

  • International Journal of Nautical Archaeology: This journal publishes detailed research articles on shipbuilding techniques, often including studies of Dutch 17th-century vessels. It is an excellent source for in-depth analyses of hull construction.
  • Mariner’s Mirror (Journal of the Society for Nautical Research): This journal contains scholarly articles on historical naval ships, including comparisons of different ship types like frigates and jachts at the structural level.

6.​

  • "The Art of Shipbuilding in the Netherlands in the Seventeenth Century" by Ab Hoving and Cor Emke: This book explores shipbuilding practices, materials, and techniques used by Dutch shipbuilders. It includes detailed descriptions and illustrations of the differences in hull shapes and structural components for military and merchant vessels.
  • "The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War, 1650–1850" by Peter Goodwin: While focused on English ships, this book contains useful comparative material on Dutch shipbuilding, as Dutch practices influenced English ship construction, and often covers the hull structures of frigates and other ships.

7.​

  • Model Ship World: A forum where ship modelers and historians discuss historical ships, including detailed aspects of ship hulls. Many users share technical information and plans related to Dutch jachts and frigates.

Conclusion:​

For reliable information on the differences in hull design between a Dutch 17th-century frigate and a military or merchant jacht, academic books, maritime museums, digital archives, and nautical journals provide the most detailed and reliable sources. Maritime museums such as the Het Scheepvaartmuseum and Rijksmuseum are especially valuable for examining ship models and construction plans.
 
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