Drenthe 1637

I added a loud laughing face after my previous comment, but it did not seem to come through.
I laughed because I am mentioned here as one of the authors of "The Art of Shipbuilding in the Netherlands in the Seventeenth Century". I never wrote that book. As for the rest of the Dutch sources mentioned: of the Dutch items I do know in this list I can assure you that none of them deals with the difference between yachts and frigates in the detailed way presented here. As far as I know our knowledge about 17th century shipbuilding is very limited, especially when it comes to the construction and the characteristics of ships.
This is a time full of miracles and wonderful things, invented by AI. I am still awaiting the moment I am referred to as the King of Atlantis....
 
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Ab Hoving said:
I added a loud laughing face after my previous comment, but it did not seem to come through.
I laughed because I am mentioned here as one of the authors of "The Art of Shipbuilding in the Netherlands in the Seventeenth Century". I never wrote that book. As for the rest of the Dutch sources mentioned: of the Dutch items I do know in this list I can assure you that none of them deals with the difference between yachts and frigates in the detailed way presented here. As far as I know out knowledge about 17th century shipbuilding is very limited, especially when it comes to the construction and the characteristics of ships.
This is a time full of miracles and wonderful things, invented by AI. I am still awaiting the moment I am referred to as the King of Atlantis....
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I do agree with you that this AI tool recent to us all is to be taken with some care. But in my opinion, it can be a source of help when it comes to trying to put things together is this big puzzle of old ships design versus function. It´s just like the Human Evolution, still full of gaps :).
In the end my view is that, as if in a shipbuilder´s mind, to build a war frigate or a "big" jacht would mean different things when "laying down the keel and structural wood", even if slightly. And even more, because the many "small inland" jachts for pleasure, service, etc were such a strong feature in the Netherlands, that to build big ones, had to have something unic coming from the small ones, thus keeping the nomenclature of "jacht" in registry. I don´t see a reason to have 2 names for the same hull shape, but this is the point of view of an amateur as me. I totally respect your view on this as you mentioned before.
In fact, 50% of the satisfaction is to build the model, but the other 50% is to learn and discuss about it with others :).
 
A number of years ago the computer expression was “garbage in, garbage out.” If AI is basically amassing huge amounts of already existing internet data and drawing conclusions, doesn’t the “garbage” expression apply?

Roger
 
Hi Roger.

What I know is that nowadays many of the written books are in digital form, as well as master degree thesis, etc. AI tool will also gather information from them, so in my opinion AI answers cannot be complete garbage. However, for sure we need to be carefull with the details and always keep crossing information.
In this case of hulls of frigates and "oceanic" jachts, it is my belief that there had to be some difference, otherwise these jachts wouldn't be so many times referred as "quick, safe and agile in shallow waters" where small frigates wouldn't have a chance. The many functions of these jachts were to go to places where frigates or big merchants wouldn't. This was my opinion before asking AI, and its answer didn't disagree with what I thought. Even with that, my search continues for more data on the subject.
 
The problem of books about Dutch ships is, that they are mostly guesses and opinions of the writer. There is almost no information about Dutch ships. The only information we have are from Yk and Witsen (AI can not read that) and then the drawings/paintings of the vd Veldes and other painters in history, a few old models in musea and wreckages that where found and just tell a little part of the ship.
My opinion is not trust AI in this case at all.
 
I have been thinking about AI in this context. I think the main problem is that AI wants to define the ship types and has no knowledge about the fact that during the 17th century the types changed significantly, in appearance as well as in function. The naming in original sources contradict each other, as a result the people who studied them were confused too and mixed the term as well. On top of that the term 'yacht' for instance is used for pleasure vessels as well, so there is a lot of noise on the line. Too much to get reliable outcomes from what a computer can 'read'. Apart from the fact that much of the original sources have not been translated and put online, so the basis under all sorts of 'facts' here is completely missing. This is too complicated stuff to leave it to a computer.
But of course, if you want to work with is, you are free to do what you want. :-)
I admire your ingenuity!
 
My whole point about AI is how to sort the garbage from the good stuff. In almost any field there are knowledgeable people and those that just think that they know. This is particularly true of our field. Most people building a ship model from scratch; in this context I mean those doing their own research to develop the model, become experts in the vessel that they are modeling. In my case, building the model of the Lake Freighter Benjamin Noble means that I have investigated her design and how it affected her loss. On the other hand, there are many books about her written by people that know nothing about Naval Architecture. In this case, I can’t see how AI could come up with anything worthwhile.

A better example is the sinking of Titanic. I know of only one book among the 100’s written that rationally examines how her design did and didn’t affect this tragic accident. It was written by William Gartzke, a professional Naval Architect specializing in forensic analysis of shipwrecks and John Woodward, who was Professor of Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering at the University of Michigan. How does AI evaluate a book written by these guys vs all the others?

Roger
 
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I have some finds in these last days to which I have some interrogations. I will post them in separate. This first one is from Witsen works and I would ask for your help in the interpretation of this drawings, because my Dutch knowledge is not able to read Witsen :).
What is the meaning of those sharp edges in the frames below the waterline? The very first center frame drawing is in fact even rounded, but then as the ship develops is in fact shown with edge. Were they a general rule in the Dutch method? We never find them in the lines of several 17th century ships plans drawn is these past 30 or 40 years, for replicas or models, as that "detail" is always rounded, even if slightly. These drawings imply that even quite large ships had this feature, so where should we stand in this aspect when we build our models? Thanks.
gri_33125008247716_0276.jpggri_33125008247716_0164.jpggri_33125008247716_0296.jpg
 
I also found this model which is exposed in the Maritime Museum of the Netherlands.
It caught my attention not only by its beauty and balanced proportions, but specially... by its rudder. The description of the ship says simply "a warship", but this rudder shape is quite common in the smaller jachts, at least the inland ones. So my question is, why the builder(s) of this model gave it the jacht rudder? There are registries of jachts ranging from 4 guns to 60 guns, which is the case of this (68 gun) ship. Could this be a contemporary example model of a large war jacht?4562lpr_37830362a9ee0f5.jpg4563lpr_1bbadc4f5614339.jpg

4566lpr_767c1044ff14f08.jpg
 
Antonio Fangueiro said:
I have some finds in these last days to which I have some interrogations. I will post them in separate. This first one is from Witsen works and I would ask for your help in the interpretation of this drawings, because my Dutch knowledge is not able to read Witsen :).
What is the meaning of those sharp edges in the frames below the waterline? The very first center frame drawing is in fact even rounded, but then as the ship develops is in fact shown with edge. Were they a general rule in the Dutch method? We never find them in the lines of several 17th century ships plans drawn is these past 30 or 40 years, for replicas or models, as that "detail" is always rounded, even if slightly. These drawings imply that even quite large ships had this feature, so where should we stand in this aspect when we build our models? Thanks.
View attachment 472774View attachment 472775View attachment 472776
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Hi Antonio,

This sharp edge is common in Dutch shell first building methode.
Witsen also mentions this in his text.
In shell first the floor was planked first followed by 2 or 3 bilge planks. Depending on the type and shape of the hull the first bilge plank was put in with a sharp edge for a sharp bilge or a graduate edge for a curved round bilge.
For a more box type of ship I expect the sharp type of bilge was choosen to get more space in the hold. For a fast small warship you would expect the round shape.
In my fluyt reconstruction I used the edge type to get a box like hull.

A Dutch Fluyt in shell first, reconstructing the "Ghost ship" scale 1:36

Just wonderful Maarten! Thank you for taking us on the journey with you. You made us almost feel like we could do it too! Hi Paul convinced you can.
shipsofscale.com

There is a lot to study about Dutch ships.
 
Antonio Fangueiro said:
I also found this model which is exposed in the Maritime Museum of the Netherlands.
It caught my attention not only by its beauty and balanced proportions, but specially... by its rudder. The description of the ship says simply "a warship", but this rudder shape is quite common in the smaller jachts, at least the inland ones. So my question is, why the builder(s) of this model gave it the jacht rudder? There are registries of jachts ranging from 4 guns to 60 guns, which is the case of this (68 gun) ship. Could this be a contemporary example model of a large war jacht?View attachment 472778View attachment 472779

View attachment 472777
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This model is unrealistic for a hull shape. The undrrwater volume seems to small for the ships borden. The rudder is also incorrect for the type of ship and is indeed seen as on small draft vessels.
 
Sorry Antonio, these questions are so fundamental that I wonder if you studied the available literature on the subject. Read my book: Nicolaes Witsen and Dutch Shipbuilding in the 17th century. Also visit the website https:\\Witsenshipbuilding.nl and download the program.
 
Ab Hoving said:
Sorry Antonio, these questions are so fundamental that I wonder if you studied the available literature on the subject. Read my book: Nicolaes Witsen and Dutch Shipbuilding in the 17th century. Also visit the website https:\\Witsenshipbuilding.nl and download the program.
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Very good advice what Ab give you here @Antonio Fangueiro. I learned a lot from this book to understand Witsen, also the program is a must to install and study, if you want to find out how these ships where build.
 
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