That is a beautiful presentation board. NIce grain to the board and routered edging with the corner carvings complimenting the ship. PT-2
DUTCH STATENYACHT 1767 by Jeronimo
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Hello Karl ,can you post the web link here for this site?
Well, I seem to have started quite a stir with my simple remark. I hope it is clear for everyone that I do not criticize the high standard of craftsmanship the model shows.
It is just that I think there are kits available with the wrong qualification 'Dutch' on them. This particular kit has been fabricated by using the hull of an 18th century draught from the Rotterdam Maritime Museum, which is of course absolutely right and legal. But then the kit producer started to decorate the hull in an absolutely outrageous way, at least in a way that would not have been appreciated in Holland in those days. The Dutch attitude towards decency is complex. The clothes the patricians wore were mostly modest black. At least they look modest. Until you realize that it is a complicated and expensive proces to manufacture totally black cloth. Thus the wealthy men showed their wealth, by looking modest. The same goes on for the decoration of their ships: not overdone, but functional and tasteful. When I look at this model I see a ridiculous outburst of unnecessary carvings. A complete horse on a beak-head that is not even functional anyway and carvings all over the ship. The kitmaker overdid it. Did he invent all these decorations by himself then? No, there is a wonderful sketch book to be seen on the internet by one of the Van Douwe family. https://disk.yandex.ru/mail?hash=D7e3HPASjaZZ5L3lkqqqySdTEOftGtwn75N7MiXwR/NPzwbOEpngdCUeiUMUKYaaq/J6bpmRyOJonT3VoXnDag==
Van Douwe shows what he is able to design, but the group they were aiming at was not the Dutch elite. They were decorators in the 18th century who sold their services to European crowned heads, like several German kingdoms and the Russian elite. So such decorations might indeed have existed. Only not in Holland. That's why I made the remark that this kit should not be advertised as a Dutch yacht. I am not sure if one could say it is a German or a Russian yacht, but anyway it is a fabricated product, not worth the title 'historic shipmodel'.
As to any mistakes in the design I did not mention them, because I did not want to make things worse. My critics might land on the heads of colleague model builders and that is the last thing I planned. But speaking of mistakes, Zoly already mentioned the helm coming over the roof. Indeed in the 17th century the helm did not come over the roof, but passed the narrow room between the ceiling of the lower cabin and the floor of the upper cabin, like we saw on the footage above. In the 18th century we see helms coming over the roof, but particularly on smaller vessels. But smaller vessels have a different interior than bigger ships. Playing around with original data and changing the scale or the decorations is a path that leads to non-sensical models. Another point is the armament. It is true that many Statenjachts did carry a few small guns. They had only a ceremonial function and their number was small, often there was not even a gun in every gun port. They served no defensive, leave alone an offensive purpose. Arming a yacht with over 10 guns is the summit of non-sense. They were only toys for the rich.
Well, that was quite a story when I look at it, but somehow I felt the need to correct the image that might have been caused by non-historical kits. Not that I advise against building those kits. Everyone should do what he likes and I can imagine the challenge such kits radiate, but please realize, while building, that what you are making has nothing to do with daily practice in Holland in the 17th and 18th century.
Sorry for being so long-windedly.
It is just that I think there are kits available with the wrong qualification 'Dutch' on them. This particular kit has been fabricated by using the hull of an 18th century draught from the Rotterdam Maritime Museum, which is of course absolutely right and legal. But then the kit producer started to decorate the hull in an absolutely outrageous way, at least in a way that would not have been appreciated in Holland in those days. The Dutch attitude towards decency is complex. The clothes the patricians wore were mostly modest black. At least they look modest. Until you realize that it is a complicated and expensive proces to manufacture totally black cloth. Thus the wealthy men showed their wealth, by looking modest. The same goes on for the decoration of their ships: not overdone, but functional and tasteful. When I look at this model I see a ridiculous outburst of unnecessary carvings. A complete horse on a beak-head that is not even functional anyway and carvings all over the ship. The kitmaker overdid it. Did he invent all these decorations by himself then? No, there is a wonderful sketch book to be seen on the internet by one of the Van Douwe family. https://disk.yandex.ru/mail?hash=D7e3HPASjaZZ5L3lkqqqySdTEOftGtwn75N7MiXwR/NPzwbOEpngdCUeiUMUKYaaq/J6bpmRyOJonT3VoXnDag==
Van Douwe shows what he is able to design, but the group they were aiming at was not the Dutch elite. They were decorators in the 18th century who sold their services to European crowned heads, like several German kingdoms and the Russian elite. So such decorations might indeed have existed. Only not in Holland. That's why I made the remark that this kit should not be advertised as a Dutch yacht. I am not sure if one could say it is a German or a Russian yacht, but anyway it is a fabricated product, not worth the title 'historic shipmodel'.
As to any mistakes in the design I did not mention them, because I did not want to make things worse. My critics might land on the heads of colleague model builders and that is the last thing I planned. But speaking of mistakes, Zoly already mentioned the helm coming over the roof. Indeed in the 17th century the helm did not come over the roof, but passed the narrow room between the ceiling of the lower cabin and the floor of the upper cabin, like we saw on the footage above. In the 18th century we see helms coming over the roof, but particularly on smaller vessels. But smaller vessels have a different interior than bigger ships. Playing around with original data and changing the scale or the decorations is a path that leads to non-sensical models. Another point is the armament. It is true that many Statenjachts did carry a few small guns. They had only a ceremonial function and their number was small, often there was not even a gun in every gun port. They served no defensive, leave alone an offensive purpose. Arming a yacht with over 10 guns is the summit of non-sense. They were only toys for the rich.
Well, that was quite a story when I look at it, but somehow I felt the need to correct the image that might have been caused by non-historical kits. Not that I advise against building those kits. Everyone should do what he likes and I can imagine the challenge such kits radiate, but please realize, while building, that what you are making has nothing to do with daily practice in Holland in the 17th and 18th century.
Sorry for being so long-windedly.
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What can I say? I don't treat Ivan's work in any way. I just say that you cannot claim to make historic ship models ('historische Schiffsmodelle') and invent a ship at the same time. And I love his craftsmanship.
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ale komentare zind nur ein MERCHEN
Like your model 
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JA
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nemen sie Muzeum KATALOG dort stet ales was sie wisen solen
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K.atalog " SCHWIMMENDE KUNSTWERKE " von Ivan Trtany
Here I want to show an excerpt of the detailed description on Ivan´s we-page
Written in German:
Dem Schiffsmodell Ivan Trtanj’s liegen Zeichnungen aus dem Maritiem Museum „Prins Hendrik“ in Rotterdam zu Grunde. Es handelt sich um eine große Prinzenjacht von 65 Fuß Länge zwischen den Loten. Der Pavillon ist in der Art wie um 1700 gebaut: Sein Boden liegt tiefer als das Deck, sodass der Helmstock, die Ruderpinne kleinerer Fahrzeuge, über sein Dach hinwegstreichen kann.
Das Wappen Wilhelms V. von Nassau-Oranien am Spiegel ist vom Band des Hosenbandordens umkränzt. Die Verzierung links und rechts ist zum Teil wohl von jemand anderem entworfen worden als die mittlere Partie. Wie bei den Jachten des 17. Jahrhunderts gebräuchlich, trägt das Scheg eine üppige Gruppe aus dem Reich der Meergötter. Das geflügelte Delphinross Arion, das von Poseidon und Demeter gezeugt und von den Nereiden aufgezogen wurde, versieht seinen Dienst als Paukenpferd. Ein kleiner Meergott schlägt auf das mit Fransen verzierte Instrument, während etwas weiter achtern an Backbord und an Steuerbord ein Triton das Horn bläst. Man achte ferner auf den gekehlten oberen Rand der Seitenschwerter, der laut G. C. E. Crone wohl nur bei diesem Entwurf vorkommt. Es ist nicht bekannt, ob jemals ein Schiff nach diesen Plänen ausgeführt wurde. Wegen des geflügelten Pferdes an der Galion hat Trtanj sein Modell PEGASUS genannt.
english translation:
The model of Ivan Trtanj’s ship is based on drawings from the Maritime Museum “Prins Hendrik” in Rotterdam. It is a large prince's yacht 65 feet long between the perpendiculars. The pavilion is built in the same way as it was around 1700: its floor is lower than the deck so that the helmet stick, the tiller of smaller vehicles, can sweep over its roof.
The coat of arms of Wilhelm V of Nassau-Orange on the mirror is surrounded by the ribbon of the Order of the Garter. Some of the decorations on the left and right were probably designed by someone other than the middle section. As is customary with the yachts of the 17th century, the Scheg carries a lush group from the realm of the sea gods. The winged dolphin steed Arion, which was sired by Poseidon and Demeter and raised by the Nereids, does its job as a drum horse. A small sea god strikes the fringed instrument, while a little further aft on port and starboard a triton blows the horn. Also pay attention to the fluted upper edge of the swords, which, according to G. C. E. Crone, appears only in this design. It is not known if any ship was ever built according to these plans. Because of the winged horse on the galion, Trtanj named his model PEGASUS.
But please read / translate also the other parts of his description
I rest my case.
If two persons conduct research on the same object independent of each other, they very rarely come to the same conclusion. And then the war starts... Irrespective of the historic background I am convinced that Ivan Trtanj's models are at the highest level and I personally would like to come only close to his level of detail and expertise but I know that I will not be able to reach that level ever.
János
János
This is an excellent and very educative discussion that fascinates me. It has provided a lot of documentation that I wasn't able to find by myself. So I thank you very much for all the previous comments, historical references and links.
I looked all around and I couldn't find if some other country built Statenjacht ships. Let say , Russian, Spanish, English, Statenjacht's. All points that this ship type was only built on the Netherlands.
Then, I belive it is correct, but I do not have authority to confirm this, to write " I am building a Dutch Statenjacht" because any other country has built this type of ships.
Then, if decorations are the correct ones for the time period these ships existed, or if they are based on drawings that can't be confirmed they were ever used on a Dutch Statenjacht is another topic of discussion.
Based on previous posting, the ship model on discussion named Pegasus by the modeler who created it, looks like never existed. Nevertheless, it is a Statenjacht.
Going back to the point, in my mind I will be building a "Dutch Statenjacht" as there isn't an "Argentinian Statenjacht".
It is a way of recognition that this ship type was created/designed/developed and used in the Netherlands.
If another country had one, at those time, they were provided as a gift (based on what I read), and, in some cases, later modified to better serve on their waters (read that about Russia and what they did to the Statenjachts they received).
When the time come to post my build log about the Pegasus (Chinese kit) I will do the corresponding clarifications, let say "This is a kit based on a Dutch Statenjacht with decorations that probably were never used at the time Statenjachts existed but used by Ivan Trtanj’s on his ship model called Pegasus ".
I want again to thank the participants of this discussion as it is highly educative.
Best
Daniel
I looked all around and I couldn't find if some other country built Statenjacht ships. Let say , Russian, Spanish, English, Statenjacht's. All points that this ship type was only built on the Netherlands.
Then, I belive it is correct, but I do not have authority to confirm this, to write " I am building a Dutch Statenjacht" because any other country has built this type of ships.
Then, if decorations are the correct ones for the time period these ships existed, or if they are based on drawings that can't be confirmed they were ever used on a Dutch Statenjacht is another topic of discussion.
Based on previous posting, the ship model on discussion named Pegasus by the modeler who created it, looks like never existed. Nevertheless, it is a Statenjacht.
Going back to the point, in my mind I will be building a "Dutch Statenjacht" as there isn't an "Argentinian Statenjacht".
It is a way of recognition that this ship type was created/designed/developed and used in the Netherlands.
If another country had one, at those time, they were provided as a gift (based on what I read), and, in some cases, later modified to better serve on their waters (read that about Russia and what they did to the Statenjachts they received).
When the time come to post my build log about the Pegasus (Chinese kit) I will do the corresponding clarifications, let say "This is a kit based on a Dutch Statenjacht with decorations that probably were never used at the time Statenjachts existed but used by Ivan Trtanj’s on his ship model called Pegasus ".
I want again to thank the participants of this discussion as it is highly educative.
Best
Daniel
We are deep into semantics
Can we agree that the Staten Yacht was a class of ships just like the Dreadnought.
Not every ship in its class looked the same and based on the person ordering such a vessel personal taste played a large role.
Looking at old masters there is lots of proof that the Dutch vessels loved their pomp and had no problems showing their wealth
Can we agree that the Staten Yacht was a class of ships just like the Dreadnought.
Not every ship in its class looked the same and based on the person ordering such a vessel personal taste played a large role.
Looking at old masters there is lots of proof that the Dutch vessels loved their pomp and had no problems showing their wealth
Lol ,it does not work that way,Ab Hoving is the most authoritive source of info for the Dutch ships
Well, if I've understood correctly, all Ab Hoving desires is to remove the word 'Dutch'. So I think there is indeed consensus that it is a Statenjacht
PS: I don't think the Netherland existed as a country in 1767
but was Holland, Utrecht and a lot of other provinses. The term 'Dutch' was probably also used for German people ( the Holy Roman Empire) .I'd guess most rich people in 'the netherlands' was indeed classy people who did not show off, as they were in Denmark and many other countries. But at least in Denmark at that time we also had one parvenu (. . . or 2 . . maybe 3). Was it not so in the Netherlands?
PS: I don't think the Netherland existed as a country in 1767
You are correct and I do apologize for my mistake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Netherlands
DRESSED IN BLACK, REMBRAND THE NIGHT WATCH, ONE OF THE MASTERPIECES OF ART IN ANY AGE. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE YOU AND YOURS DON