Dying/darkening white sails

[ViperR]

Hello everyone,
I just joined and posted in the "Introduce Yourself" section.
I recently got back into wooden ship building and purchased and working on an OcCre Buccaneer kit because I like pirate ships. Price was affordable compared to other ones.
I have the deck planks and outside planks of the hull assembled and stained. Went with darker stains than the instructions/online videos because I wanted a darker and more sinister pirate look to it. Instead of "in the white" decking, I stained them in oak. Hull is stained in sections of maple and walnut. Gave a dark tone to the entire ship.
My dilemma and question are about the sails. They are white in color with yellow stripes in them and I want them to be a medium to dark grey in color. They are the typical cloth sails and are already cut and sewn. I was thinking about dying them to add to darkness of the ship instead of bright white sails.
What kind of cloth dye should I use? RIT dye from Hobby Lobby? Any tips or tricks on dying sales? I don't want them black, but a grey that matches my dark themed pirate ship.
Thank you!

 

[Y.T.]

I use strong tea to dye my sails. I wet them well in water before submerging into tea. This ensures even spread of color.

 

[Bob Cleek]

What YT said. You can use Rit Dye, as well, but tea and coffee are often used for the purpose. Be sure to rinse well, after staining, though. Both tea and coffee are acidic, much more so coffee than tea. Acids don't play well with threads and textiles on ship models over the long haul.

 

[ViperR]

Thank you for the tips. I'll wet first then soak in some brewed black tea (Earl Grey) then rinse really good in water after I achieve the desired shade. I found an old box of the tea that's been sitting in the cupboard for years that will save me a trip to Hobby Lobby. I want to try this first on a scrap piece of fabric first, so I'll have to dig around for an old white shirt or something to test out on. I'll only have one shot at this, so I want to be certain.
I'll post some pics of the before and after.

 

[ViperR]

Ok, found an old sleeveless t-shirt (some call it a w*** beater shirt). Cut up small sections, brewed some Twining's Black Tea (Earl Grey & Irish Breakfast) and brew a cup of black coffee from my Keurig K-Cup machine. Let the tea bags steep for around 10 minutes, wetted the pieces and let them soak in each cup for around five minutes. Took them out and gave them all a good rinse and laid them on a paper towel for a bit.
The coffee one came out a nice dark, but when I rinsed it all washed away and was rather light in tone. The teas kept their tones after a rinse, so I'll go with the tea method.
The Earl Grey was a little too light for my liking, but the Irish has a very nice darkened tone to it, so I'll be using that one. Glad I did those tests beforehand.
The picture makes them look darker than they are. Just my limited photo skills with my phones camera.

 

[Bob Cleek]

The black coffee sample looks the most like the color of used sail cloth, but as colors appear darker at a distance (an adjustment appropriate in terms of paint colors as well,) I'd say go with the Irish Breakfast Black Tea result. That's also the color of quite old cotton or linen sails on ship models I've restored, so you can expect your model to have a bit of a "vintage" look, I expect.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

The black coffee does look like a very old sail.

Fore topsail from HMS Victory remoed after the Battle of Trafalgar.

 

[pugwash]

The black coffee does look like a very old sail.
View attachment 555129
Fore topsail from HMS Victory remoed after the Battle of Trafalgar.

Don't ignore the Moth Balls!

 

[Bob Cleek]

Amazing that it survived being cut up for souvenirs!

 

[AllanKP69]

found an old sleeveless t-shirt

Staining cloth may not be what you want in the end. If the undershirt is cotton, staining it with the tannin and acidity of tea and coffee will degrade the cloth over time. Also, no matter the material of the shirt, the color of tea stains and coffee stains will change as well.
Allan

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I used pine tar to stain my sails. Not only does it lend historical color, but also adds historical odor.

 

[ViperR]

I guess I'll skip using tea or coffee. Thanks for the warnings about the acids degrading the fabric.
I just might go the RIT dye route. I'm going to see if Hobby Lobby has any fabric like the sail material that I can get swatches of.
I'll have to look into the pine tar method. Thanks.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Aqueous aniline wood dye - or
alcohol aniline dye if later for use in wood - at model scale the difference in depth is probably imperceptible. or
Liberon van Dyke crystals 250g or

probably best and least expensive - cut to the chase and use a Rit fabric dye

 

[AllanKP69]

I just might go the RIT dye route. I'm going to see if Hobby Lobby has any fabric like the sail material that I can get swatches of.

Please report back on this as it would be really helpful if they have super high thread count cloth. The highest thread count I have found is high end bedding supposedly approaching1000 TC. I realize this can be deceptive depending on how they do the count. One pillowcase will be enough for a LOT of sails. Even the highest thread count cloth that exists is out of scale for smaller than about 1:24, but it does look much better than the burlap-like junk we see from most kit manufacturers. You may want to consider silkspan. There are videos

and a great $5 booklet (https://seawatchbooks.com/products/...vised-and-expanded-edition-by-david-antscherl) on making realistic sails with this material that you may find useful.
Allan

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I realize this can be deceptive depending on how they do the count.

It is my understanding that the highest thread count ( where WHAT is being counted IS an individual thread that is woven as the unit ) is 300 or 400 count.
The counts higher than 400 are also the number of threads, but those are threads that are twisted into pairs or maybe even what we know as rope. It seems that if it is the number of "bumps" in the plane of the fabric being counted - then 400 is about the max.

I miss Bed Bath & Beyond because there it was easy to compare the many choices. Egyptian cotton is supposed to be a long fiber variety. My guess is that fewer long fibers are needed to twist up a stable yarn. Thinner tarns make thinner threads.

I wonder if this would be what you are after.

Japanese Rice Paper Printable A4 Size Paper (30 Sheets), Multipurpose Copy Paper for Laser and Inkjet Printers, Made in JAPAN, Natural Color -from Amazon.​

A brown color pencil and a quality straight edge can get the tabling(?) and reef bands and etc.

 

[Bob Cleek]

What Allan just said. I checked the advertising on your Ocre Buccaneer kit and confirmed that it is among nearly all the kits supplying cloth sails in so far as the sails are grossly out of scale and, well... crudely made. I've never seen woven cloth that isn't over-scale for use portraying sails at 1:100 scale. In fact, I don't think woven cloth is available that would not be over-scale at even 1:24 (1/2" to the foot.) If you want to portray sails on you model without it looking like a toy, silkspan is the way to go. Watch Tom Lauria's videos and get David Antscherl's video from Seawatch: https://seawatchbooks.com/products/...vised-and-expanded-edition-by-david-antscherl

"Silkspan" is a material available in the U.S. and long used by model airplane builders to cover model airframe structures. (See: https://www.modelaviation.com/Secrets-of-Silk) "Silkspan" is a brand name of the SIG company, which sells model airplane products. A similar, if not identical Canadian product is sold for the same purpose as Silkspan under the brand name "Modelspan." (See: https://www.modelaviationproducts.com/products/covering-materials/38) Silkspan and Modelspan are a unique variety of Japanese tissue paper made from carefully selected plant fiber. It was originally the stuff they used for making teabags. The material is closer in durability to silk fabric than the material generically called "Japanese tissue.” Silkspan's fibers are parallel to the longer side of the sheet. The surface is smooth on both sides. Its biggest advantage is that it can be soaked with water and can be worked well even in a wet state, as it hardly loses its strength. Other types of "Japanese tissue" and "rice papers" have fibers oriented randomly or in varying thicknesses. Some will actually dissolve if wetted, while others have a smooth side and a rough side, disqualifying them for ship modeling purposes for both of these reasons.. To be sure you are getting the right type of material, stick to buying "Silkspan" or "Modelspan" alone. Don't confuse the currently more popular "shrink wrap" plastic films sold for sheathing model airplane airframes with the original Silkspan or Modelspan tissue paper.

 

[ViperR]

Well, I went to Hobby Lobby and a lady gave me a scrap white cotton and also guided me on what RIT dye to use. It was Neutral-2 but the lady said it comes out like a khaki shade. I mixed up a bit with water to get it close to the tea that looked nice. Looked pretty good on the scrap and with fingers crossed, I dyed all the sales. Came out just about perfect. Whew! I needed a bourbon after that. Goes really well with the oak, maple and walnut stains of the ships wood.
The scrap looked like it was pillow case fabric and have no idea the thread count. The sails do look a bit large from the boxes picture, but I'll use them anyway. I have no idea how to sew and don't even have a sewing machine. I'm good with them. Maybe next ship.

 

[AllanKP69]

Maybe next ship.

You won't be sorry.
Allan

 

[Bob Ellis]

Hello everyone,
I just joined and posted in the "Introduce Yourself" section.
I recently got back into wooden ship building and purchased and working on an OcCre Buccaneer kit because I like pirate ships. Price was affordable compared to other ones.
I have the deck planks and outside planks of the hull assembled and stained. Went with darker stains than the instructions/online videos because I wanted a darker and more sinister pirate look to it. Instead of "in the white" decking, I stained them in oak. Hull is stained in sections of maple and walnut. Gave a dark tone to the entire ship.
My dilemma and question are about the sails. They are white in color with yellow stripes in them and I want them to be a medium to dark grey in color. They are the typical cloth sails and are already cut and sewn. I was thinking about dying them to add to darkness of the ship instead of bright white sails.
What kind of cloth dye should I use? RIT dye from Hobby Lobby? Any tips or tricks on dying sales? I don't want them black, but a grey that matches my dark themed pirate ship.
Thank you!

You may want to consider that sails didn't last very long. Certainly never stained to the colour many modellers produce with tea/coffee.
The furthest I woud go is adding watercolour washes to the lower edges and obvious areas that would stain, say where water has run along the edge of bolt ropes etc. Look at quality paintings.
However you seem to have an idea of your own!? Choose a dye suitable for the sail material, a cotton dye mix for cotton sails etc.

 

[ENJAY49]

My thinking too Bob, I used diluted watercolor ink, (I do airbrush art), let it run down to avoid any uniformity all over the sail. (the camera's giving them a pinkish tint).