Help with a museum restoration. Can anyone identify this model?

[Weasel]

Hello . I have volunteered to do some restoration and repair work for the museum at Bucklers Hard in the New Forest near my home in the South of England. This is the current project before I make a start on her.
Can anyone identify the ship ? It is very well made by an obvious craftsman, but is very dirty and the rigging needs a lot of repair.
There is no name on the stern or the base.

The previous repair on an HMS Swiftsure frame only model was straightforward . I had to repair some broken frames and manufacture a missing one, But this will take a bit more time.

Thanks shipmates.

Weasel

 

[AllanKP69]

It is very well made by an obvious craftsman

There are a number of oddities on this model. A.) The wheel is mounted on the barrel instead of on the other side of the pedestal, leaving no room for the tiller rope, B.) Battens are running athwartships on some of the gratings, which was not done. C.) Mitered corners on the head ledges and coaming pieces instead of the way they were actually built. I wonder why the museum has an interest in a model with such basic mistakes.
Allan
A.

B. Gratings on HMS Victory as example


C. Example of corner construction

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Looking at the model as a whole: it is a lot more detailed than most decorator kitsch but it looks to have more in common with kitsch than it does with an accurate scale model. It may be sailor made but wouldn't its possible value to the museum be more with who made it and what his history was?
I have done very little masting and rigging, but the yards - are they over scale? Are some of the rails over scale?
When did the use of gunport lids stop being used? I think they went to only lower half lids sometime in the 19thC. for the top deck.

 

[AllanKP69]

Perhaps this was just a generic model with no specific vessel or era in mind. Another possible anomaly--- The cannon are bronze colored. Bronze cannon were common into the 17th century and they were still found into the 18th century, HMS Victory 1737was the last major Royal Navy warship to carry a full complement of bronze cannon. On the other hand there are belaying pins on pin racks on the bulwarks. Belaying pins were first used on English ships using racks tied to the shrouds starting about 1745. Their placement on racks on the bulwarks began closer to 1775. This makes it even harder to come up with a time period and thus any specific vessel. Can you post a close up photo of the cannon? The patterns were pretty specific for given years so their pattern may help narrow things down to a specific time period.

Thanks
Allan

 

[Weasel]

I have to agree with all of the above. A closer examination shows that the gratings are just strips laid over crosswise strips with no attempt at notching them. I attach a couple of pics that show the cannons. There is no attempt to show the cordage that would have been put on a more detailed model. The cannons themselves look home made and crude. The finer details of the rigging however are very good.
The museum records will show who made the model and when. It should reveal why they kept it in a back storage room and not on display.

 

[RussF]

I'm hoping this model is in the museum for its provenance rather than its historical accuracy. Otherwise, it certainly lends credence to the claims of so many model manufacturers that their kits produce "museum quality" models.

 

[AllanKP69]

The museum records will show who made the model and when. It should reveal why they kept it in a back storage room and not on display.

This whole thing may be just a nostalgic journey for the museum because the model is old.

Otherwise, it certainly lends credence to the claims of so many model manufacturers that their kits produce "museum quality" models.

PERFECTLY said!

I love the history of Buckler's Hard from when it was founded as Montague Town as a number of famous vessels were built in her shipyard but this project has me wondering about the museum's goals.

Allan

 

[Weasel]

The models on display in the museum are first class, and they have plans to show a replica full size of HMS Agamemnon under construction on the slipway at Bucklers Hard, to show the building technology and tools of the period. Subject to planning permission. The model under consideration was retrieved from a back room, and I expect it was constructed by the museum model - builder - in -residence many years ago and therefore has value to the family and staff. It will not be put on display.

 

[Pepite 1/60]

In this case, dont bother about authenticity or identification. Just give the model a good clean-up, repair the broken rigging as good as you know and call it a day as soon as the museum poeple are happy with it.

 

[Weasel]

This is the latest on this model from the archives of the museum.
I think it’s the 20-gun Lively (1756) which was made by Pat Curtis & given to the Museum by Claire Lincoln in 2009. It was made by Pat for her mother’s birthday. The original was built by Moody Janverin at Burseldon on the river Hamble,
Pat Curtis was a model builder for the museum. The model was, as discussed above, an interpretation from the original drawings and never intended for exhibition.
Lively had a very interesting life including being involved in the Bunker Hill events in the American War of Independence. Well worth googling.

Thanks for the input from the SOS shipmates.

Weasel

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Glad you got things figured out on the ship. History is as important to many as accuracy is to others.

 

[AllanKP69]

Happy to hear you solved the puzzle! There are a number of contemporary drawings of Lively 1756 to compare to the model, but as you state, it is not meant to be a study of what a 20 gun ship actually looks like. Still, it might be interesting to compare. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/search/Lively 1756

I have a contract for the 20 gun Sphinx 1774 class if you are interested.
Allan

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Playing a game that I enjoy.
There are plans for the Gibraltar class that are available: ZAZ4002.
Should the vessel intrigue you, and you wish to see if you can build a better version - totally new .
The main negative that I see: neither the framing of nor the actual appearance of the stern is a part.