hull colour

[bluenos2]

Could anyone tell me what colour I would use to replicate the "brown stuff" payed to British ships hulls before they used white.

 

[AllanKP69]

Hi BN2
What ship/year is this for?

I am joking but I wonder if you could actually make your own. tar, pitch, and brimstone. I highly doubt any two batches of the mixture ever matched in color exactly. And then once in the water, the color probably changed as well. Probably any dark brown would be appropriate.

Brain Lavery describes this coating in The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War on page 58.

Allan

 

[bluenos2]

Hi BN2
What ship/year is this for?

I am joking but I wonder if you could actually make your own. tar, pitch, and brimstone. I highly doubt any two batches of the mixture ever matched in color exactly. And then once in the water, the color probably changed as well. Probably any dark brown would be appropriate.

Brain Lavery describes this coating in The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War on page 58.

Allan

This would for the HMB Endeavour. The colour is what I would have thought. Just wanted to see if anyone had a witches brew that they had come up with. Thnx.

 

[AllanKP69]

Brown stuff (the tar, pitch and brimstone formula) was common at the time of Endeavour so a smart choice. An interesting thing ------ About 1777 the navy only used it to about 3 feet below the load waterline to save money and used tallow and lime above the brown stuff. Never saw this on a model, but would surely raise some conversation.

Allan

 

[bluenos2]

Brown stuff (the tar, pitch and brimstone formula) was common at the time of Endeavour so a smart choice. An interesting thing ------ About 1777 the navy only used it to about 3 feet below the load waterline to save money and used tallow and lime above the brown stuff. Never saw this on a model, but would surely raise some conversation.

Allan

 

[bluenos2]

Interesting. It appears after some research that the colour could be anything from a light brown to almost black depending on where the ship was built and repayed. I have built armour and the same applies as to factory and field repairs with what ever paint was available. Best not to tilt at that windmill as the correct answer is all of the above.

 

[Roger Pellett]

Start with burnt umber (aka Van dyke Brown). Play with different colors; white, light brown, grey until you’re happy with it.

Roger

 

[bluenos2]

Start with burnt umber (aka Van dyke Brown). Play with different colors; white, light brown, grey until you’re happy with it.

Roger

Sounds about right. I'm going to mix up some oil based product and spray it with my airbrush. That way I can go back and add or rub out some colours on some of the planking as I see fit. The hull colour would probably be a little variegated due to the grain and amount of product each person applied. I'm going for a look that would be appropriate for a ship that has been at sea for a while. We'll see.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

The hull colour would probably be a little variegated due to the grain and amount of product each person applied.

These are some thoughts to consider before you step off the cliff:

I could easily be where you are. My preference is stylized framing. What framing that I have is more than enough to support planking. My style is not Navy Board, but can be taken for it. My purpose is to attempt an artistic style that is true to original in spirit. At our scales, I think that and actually see that it is easy to produce something that is too literal. Art and illusion is much more difficult and requires a degree of finesse. I requires practice and taste. It is more difficult. I see that a successful result as being more pleasing to view. In my case my reach far exceeds my grasp. Ambitious goals are worth having.?

If I planked the bottom I would want to show that off. That you have to ask the question about the color is a reflection of a situation where there is not enough information to simulate actual historical accuracy. If I had to and intended to make a guess anyway, I would go for art and suggestion. I would go with a subdued white. I would see if I could find an alcohol based aniline dye that is white. The planking pattern and grain would survive that. If not such dye is possible, I try a thin semi-transparent enamel wash of off white.

I keep seeing kit paint jobs where the thickness and complete opacity of the paint overpowers the wood under it and steals the show. Perhaps part of it is that water based acrylics are used. Perhaps it is that the very nature of the acrylic polymer cannot avoid looking thick and chalky. Whatever the cause, the result just does not look realistic. My hope is that there has to be a better way. Less is better. A hint is better. I having the thought that if I made a visible layer that was able to simulate "a little variegated" and demonstrated a difference in the "amount of product each person applied". I would not like the overpowering look that would have to be a part of the result.

 

[bluenos2]

These are some thoughts to consider before you step off the cliff:

I could easily be where you are. My preference is stylized framing. What framing that I have is more than enough to support planking. My style is not Navy Board, but can be taken for it. My purpose is to attempt an artistic style that is true to original in spirit. At our scales, I think that and actually see that it is easy to produce something that is too literal. Art and illusion is much more difficult and requires a degree of finesse. I requires practice and taste. It is more difficult. I see that a successful result as being more pleasing to view. In my case my reach far exceeds my grasp. Ambitious goals are worth having.?

If I planked the bottom I would want to show that off. That you have to ask the question about the color is a reflection of a situation where there is not enough information to simulate actual historical accuracy. If I had to and intended to make a guess anyway, I would go for art and suggestion. I would go with a subdued white. I would see if I could find an alcohol based aniline dye that is white. The planking pattern and grain would survive that. If not such dye is possible, I try a thin semi-transparent enamel wash of off white.

I keep seeing kit paint jobs where the thickness and complete opacity of the paint overpowers the wood under it and steals the show. Perhaps part of it is that water based acrylics are used. Perhaps it is that the very nature of the acrylic polymer cannot avoid looking thick and chalky. Whatever the cause, the result just does not look realistic. My hope is that there has to be a better way. Less is better. A hint is better. I having the thought that if I made a visible layer that was able to simulate "a little variegated" and demonstrated a difference in the "amount of product each person applied". I would not like the overpowering look that would have to be a part of the result.

I get where you're coming from. Something to note is that the bottom of the Endeavour was payed with "brown stuff" not anything white. Being that part of my modelling background is in armour, shading and weathering is essential to a finished product. As a finishing carpenter I would not use an alcohol or water based stain in this case for very good reasons. There is no room for error on raw wood. Water and alcohol evaporate immediately leaving little room for adjustment. For this reason I spray these products with a gun when I am finishing cabinets etc. Using oil gives me the advantage of going back with thinner and subtly altering the finish in spots "I" choose to give a more variegated finish. Realistically in my opinion the hull would't be a solid brown or black but a combination of both in moderation to capture the essence of the art if you will.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

We seem to be on the same page.
I suggested white-ish because I think for some time period(s) a white mixture was used in their vain attempts and white would probably set the bottom off a bit more that brown. Using a cheat for artistic license.
As far as dye use:
The books say that water goes deeper and has more depth. It also raises the grain.
Alcohol does not raise grain. I do not see "more depth" as being a factor at 1:48 and smaller scales.
When I used a dye it just soaked in as much as it was allowed. Any puddles on the surface need to be quickly wiped up.
The wood becomes the color. If done correctly there is no variegation or mottling that I have experienced.
I was probably being a bit disingenuous about using a dye on a finished surface that has a direct interface with another color or no color. The wood fibers will transport a dye across the border unless they are physically cut and blocked. This is probably more trouble than it is worth, even if it is practical.
The trick with a dye is to make the wood be the dye before it is bonded. At our scales, the end grain may want pre-treatment with 80-90% PVA to impede the dye from being sucked too far up the straw. At 1:1 the additional distance is not significant - at scale it can be. Or even better, dye the wood before it is its final size. Tint the PVA.