Is 3D printing cheating?
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Let's get more people into wooden ship building!
- Thread starter Model Shipways
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I think that it has been established that there is a good number of people that are (or have been) interested in this hobby given the number of individuals that have signed up on SoS (MSW as well). I also see every day that there are new introductions being made. So the base may not be an issue as all.
i never did see an issue with trying to get more people into the hobby. SoS has grown from 500 to 22,000 members and still growing.
Trying to push up the membership numbers for the sake of more, more, more members rather focus on what we have which brings up your comment
Would it be better to concentrate on development of members? I know this is done in an ad hoc basis via the build logs, via group builds, and now more systematically by Dave Stevens in his School for Shipmodel Building. Still, I feel there is a thread of desire that a segment of the membership become modelers of the highest degree as well as more modelers create models of currently unmodeled ships.
this is the way to develop better model builders but to do so requires a structure from beginner to master builders. Unfortunately, the administrator on the forum does not agree with such a structure.
I’d rather see this hobby as inclusive, where every modeler can grow in the direction that makes sense for them, without worrying about categories or hierarchies.
This idea is to flatline the hobby so everyone is equal and everyone can go in any direction they want no need to learn anything just do what you want. chaos and confusion as to building scale ship models or “A point in every direction is the same as having no point at all”
This is the idea behind the school is to offer knowledge, ideas and methods to improve your experience in the hobby. The school is separate from the general forum, if you want no part of it or just happy what you're doing you do not have to check in on the classes being offered. It is there if you want to follow along OR not.
Here's a half-cooked idea, not too far from a call for grants in academia. Perhaps SoS as an organization could provide some focus on this aspect. One possibility would be that a list of models that should be built (i.e., revisit Chappelle) can be developed by a group on this site. Desired style of construction could be specified, along with a high level of building standards, etc. Modelers could then take on the challenge. Perhaps a timeframe could be imposed and some type of award / recognition could be bestowed on those modelers that advance the hobby via this program. Maybe the topflight work could be picked up and turned into a book by a publisher such as SeaWatch, or a modeling company could be a sponsor that would help turn the project into a (semi)kit with the modeler getting in on the proceeds.
to start with SoS is just a forum and not a business it has no actual structure just an open-ended random collection of model builders with everyone going off in all directions. To organize it would require a dedicated staff.
Your half cooked idea is what is needed and SoS can become a center of learning this as a hobby all the way up to an art. In time the Sir Edward Hawke will be offered as a semi-kit for anyone wanting to give it a go.
There are empty classrooms just waiting for someone to step in and advance the hobby via any program you create. The school is a rare opportunity given to the hobby by the owner of SoS. The classroom is all yours to manage so rather than trying to organize or structure the entire forum it is better to micromanage the classrooms in the school.
i never did see an issue with trying to get more people into the hobby. SoS has grown from 500 to 22,000 members and still growing.
Trying to push up the membership numbers for the sake of more, more, more members rather focus on what we have which brings up your comment
Would it be better to concentrate on development of members? I know this is done in an ad hoc basis via the build logs, via group builds, and now more systematically by Dave Stevens in his School for Shipmodel Building. Still, I feel there is a thread of desire that a segment of the membership become modelers of the highest degree as well as more modelers create models of currently unmodeled ships.
this is the way to develop better model builders but to do so requires a structure from beginner to master builders. Unfortunately, the administrator on the forum does not agree with such a structure.
I’d rather see this hobby as inclusive, where every modeler can grow in the direction that makes sense for them, without worrying about categories or hierarchies.
This idea is to flatline the hobby so everyone is equal and everyone can go in any direction they want no need to learn anything just do what you want. chaos and confusion as to building scale ship models or “A point in every direction is the same as having no point at all”
This is the idea behind the school is to offer knowledge, ideas and methods to improve your experience in the hobby. The school is separate from the general forum, if you want no part of it or just happy what you're doing you do not have to check in on the classes being offered. It is there if you want to follow along OR not.
Here's a half-cooked idea, not too far from a call for grants in academia. Perhaps SoS as an organization could provide some focus on this aspect. One possibility would be that a list of models that should be built (i.e., revisit Chappelle) can be developed by a group on this site. Desired style of construction could be specified, along with a high level of building standards, etc. Modelers could then take on the challenge. Perhaps a timeframe could be imposed and some type of award / recognition could be bestowed on those modelers that advance the hobby via this program. Maybe the topflight work could be picked up and turned into a book by a publisher such as SeaWatch, or a modeling company could be a sponsor that would help turn the project into a (semi)kit with the modeler getting in on the proceeds.
to start with SoS is just a forum and not a business it has no actual structure just an open-ended random collection of model builders with everyone going off in all directions. To organize it would require a dedicated staff.
Your half cooked idea is what is needed and SoS can become a center of learning this as a hobby all the way up to an art. In time the Sir Edward Hawke will be offered as a semi-kit for anyone wanting to give it a go.
There are empty classrooms just waiting for someone to step in and advance the hobby via any program you create. The school is a rare opportunity given to the hobby by the owner of SoS. The classroom is all yours to manage so rather than trying to organize or structure the entire forum it is better to micromanage the classrooms in the school.
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is using a CNC "computer" controlled to make parts cheating? is using a scroll saw or laser to cut parts cheating? nope they are just tools in the hands of a craftsman
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Really?
In my humble opinion there is a different definition for media.
A wooden ship model is produced from defferent media: wood, metal, rope, cloth, etc...
Using a machine is part of a process and the machine itself can hardly be call a media: for example, the media may be the resin for the 3D printer or the lumber for the CNC machine.
Handmade ... definition from different sources
- made by hand or by a hand process.
- made using the hands rather than a machine.
- If something is handmade, it is made by someone using their hands or using tools rather than by machines.
- Made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills.
A 3D printer or a CNC mill, or a laser cutter is a machine … Although it may take a great deal of craftsmanship and artistry to create the required files to do the work, the product issued from such technology is not handmade. Using a computer aided software to produce parts is a process, and it certainly does not qualify the part as being handmade.
Yes, one may determine that I am a traditionalist.
But, let say the entire model is 3D printed (yes why limit printing to just decorations and such item I figure I am incapable of producing with my hand using tools), is the resulting work qualify as handmade: even if I create the individual files used to create the entire model?
I dare say it is not…
Then, a kit would be handmade, just not the hands of the producer because the definitions above does not explicitly say who’s hands should be used.
One may extrapolate on or interpret the words used in any definition to fit individual or collective purpose.
G.
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good point Gilles
i guess i should say all my models are from scratch created using tools and technology at my disposal to achieve a finished piece of work. Incorporating mixed media of wood, resin, glues, hand assembled from machine fabricated parts. Nothing pre made or out of a box only raw materials were used.
i guess i should say all my models are from scratch created using tools and technology at my disposal to achieve a finished piece of work. Incorporating mixed media of wood, resin, glues, hand assembled from machine fabricated parts. Nothing pre made or out of a box only raw materials were used.
I see Gilles point. I do not recall ever hearing a good quality modern model being called handmade. Kit, scratch and kit bashed are commonly heard terms in our hobby, but handmade not so much. I see this as a fourth category that we will probably never see again unless someone takes on the challenge of using hand drills and foot pedaled lathes and such, as was done before electric motors changed to the world. (Not me, don't have enough years left 
)
Allan
) Allan
I see Gilles point. I do not recall ever hearing a good quality modern model being called handmade. Kit, scratch and kit bashed are commonly heard terms in our hobby, but handmade not so much. I see this as a fourth category that we will probably never see again unless someone takes on the challenge of using hand drills and foot pedaled lathes and such, as was done before electric motors changed to the world. (Not me, don't have enough years left
Allan
I'm with Giles. I don't see using tools as negating the concept of "handmade," but there is a point where I do think technology does erode, if not negate, the concept of "art," which is inextricably intertwined with the concept of "intended meaning." Where the line is drawn isn't clear at this point, but it's my sense that there is a line there somewhere. Is photoetching "handmade?" I suppose so, if the modeler makes their own stencils. But then, how is that different from simply buying the photoetched parts from a vendor? 3D printing is not so different from photoetching in terms of communicating "intended meaning." However, with the present technology, it takes no creativity at all to replicate a part in miniature to any scale desired with a high degree of accuracy. Is that even modeling? I think an analogy can be drawn with Artificial Intelligence. This has become a hot button issue in academia. What is a written work produced by AI? Can one put their name on it and call it "literature?" Can anyone claim to be its author? How is a similarly produced model part. Can the modeler say "I made that?"
The semantics become bedeviling in short order. For this reason, I find myself always coming back to the question, "Is it art?" The Supreme Court of the United States back in 1964 had a similar problem with defining pornography. In exasperation, Justice Potter Stewart famously wrote in his concurring opinion, "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it." I think it's the same with fine art ship models. We can't really define what they are, but we know them when we see one.
Now the question becomes how many know enough about ship models to have the ability to recognize a master work when they see one?
Better hold that thought!
While fully recognizing that I may incur the wrath of plastic ship modelers, the reason that plastic model kits, "highly detailed ship models" though they may be, cannot be seriously considered "fine art" is because they are not designed by the people who assemble them, are mass produced for the commercial market, and lack the archival qualities expected of any work of fine art intended to be permanent. 
It's one of the oldest and most rewarding hobbies in the world. Used to be huge. But then came plastic kits, then video games, internet, smart phones... and our world got smaller.
Some people think "I'll never be able to build something like that". Well, we don't believe in it. And we put our money where our mouth is.
Here is the deal: You buy the Dory - with or without tools - build it and send us a picture of you with your masterpiece. We will GIVE YOU BACK everything you spent in store credit.
Chances are you will build wooden ships for the rest of your life.
If you build plastic kits, now it's the opportunity to give it a try. And if you already are a wood modeler, help us spread the word.
Let's make wooden ship building great again!
Buy The Dory Here
View attachment 414084
The title is …..read it
This is not a discussion about kit vs scratch build or what is an art or not!!!!!
Respect the oroginal poster of this topic !!!
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Well, no disrespect here and no intention to argue with the "stay on subject police" but...
The original post was simply an advertisement from a kit manufacturer offering a promotion back in late 2023: buy a kit, send a photo of the finish product and get a credit for your next purchase.
SO, I am actually surprised it took you 11 pages over a period of almost 2 years to figure out that the original title and early post do not promote any discussion on the subject of getting more people into model ship building.
Maybe should have closed the topic / thread after a certain time period.
But whatever....
Respectfully yours.
G
So if you know the topic was an ad why change the subject with a hell lot nonsense trashing kits and kit builders ? That is also disrespecting to most of the forum members not just the topic starter.
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Really...
I would like to point out the following as I am sure you are expecting it:
- Maybe the original poster chose the wrong title: after all this is a discussion forum and the title alone may trigger some kind of discussion if you do not actually read the content of the original post.
- The off suject replies started much earlier than today.
- You addressed your latest reply to me: note that my first post here is #205 and is in no way trashing anyone or anything in it.
- I find your post (referenced in this reply) offensive towards me personally: but do not worry I think I do have a pretty thick skin and I can take it... except that I do have to set the record straight.
- The only thing I am now trashing (post 212) is the fact that you waited until now to react to the thread.
Kindest regards.
G.
Kindest regards.
I have no time to read every single thread and post on the forum !!!
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