Life before AutoCad

I have just finished drawing the fore-and aft sails, plus standing rigging of the steel-hulled full-rigged ship Peleus. Using pens, paper and French curves. Very relaxing. I photographed the large plan, and coloured it in on the computer, that is how I have got this small image. This is only of interest to me. When I show these plans at the local ship model society, there is seldom any comment, or flicker of interest. It generally only model ship collectors who like this sort of thing! I now have to add 17 square sails.
Fore and aft sails (Large).jpg
 
Hallo Guys......both personal opinions and statements are representing individual needs and preferences.
If somebody wants to make handdrawings for his models - fine
If somebody wants to use CAD, because he is able to do it and for his needs necessary - also fine.

My personal opinion and two cents:
30 years ago everybody made draughts by hand, like 200 years ago, In the meantime the time changed and drawings, I am civil engineer, so I know best related to my profession, drawings without CAD are impossible anymore. The big advantage is the replication and smal adjustments with one mouseclick, and very important the error-check of all elements, due to the fact, that all elements are related in one model and the 2D drawings printed are only excerpts out of this 3-dimensional model........so if your model works - no errors any more in your 2D-print out.
Unfortunately I missed the train of CAD learning in my profession, I had every time collegeus who know how to work with it, so there was also no need in my business, that I have to know how to handle CAD......now I am angry about myself, but I did not recognize in time, that this could also help in our hobby.
I am collecting drawing sets, especially from ancre (Boudriot, Berti, Delacroix etc.) people which new how to draw a plan, in the past by hand (like Boudriot) and nowadays by CAD (like Delacroix), so also in the hobby I have somebody who is delivering me the drawings.......but I can not (in moment) produce my own drawings (remark: I like 1:48 17th and 18th century, so no miniatures).

Nowadays with the upcoming technical possibilities of 3D-Milling, laser-cutting, 3D printing etc. I would give the left hand of my mother in law, if I would know how to work with a quality CAD-software - I am jealous, when I see what some guys here are able to do........
In principle I am very happy, that new technologies are coming up and also getting reasonably priced, so that the "normal" modeler can use it and make his models better. Remember brass photo etching! 30 years ago, plastic kits were standard and it was realy hard to optimize them......the market produced than these superdetailing kits (partly for high price) and modelers could superdetail there small 1:350 ship models.......in the meantime some modelers are producing by themself these photoetching parts.

If I see a computer carved figurehead or decoration, I am sometimes speachless how good they are already (and in 5 more years much much better I guess), nevertheless if I know, that a beautifull carved decoration is handmade - this is off course in my opinion the high-class of modeling.
But I am very happy, that much more modelers can produce much better models with new offered technologies. And this is making our hobby interesting for much more newbies, they have much more possibilities than in the past. And kit-producer have to revise their business models, otherwise they will loose the contact to the modelers and will not sell their old-fashioned kits. Because of this, some chinese manufacturer are dangerous for the "old" manufacturers. Designed with a 3D model, accurate and also in the meantime high quality timber........Without 3D-design such a kit-model like my La Salamandre would be not possible, and this 3D-modeling and transfering to laser-cuts was not copied by the chinese! No! This is done by themself.

Sorry, post got longer and longer........this was not only 2 cents....minimum 20 cents o_O
 
I was using Solidworks (3D mechanical engineering package, and a very good one!) for 16 years and having an official copy for myself I used it a few times, but not too often, for modelling as well. The program is not specifically made for hull shapes, but they can be done with its generic tools nicely. I made a full hull design for my Duyfken quite a while ago just to be able the afte frames as well as the cant bow frames for her and it came out perfectly. I also made a few small designs for just a few small items - like the main lantern for Royal Yacht Caroline - but did not follow up with it recently, due to the lack of interest. As my next big project after having SoS finished will be Le Soleil Royal's stern model I have to use SW again.
Janos
 
I know where Bob is coming from, but we live in the 21st century, not the 18th or earlier.
I've plans for the HMY Royal Caroline and I literally spent 300 to 400 hours drawing my plans for my build. I was using photoshop to draw these plans. But and this is a huge but, the plans that are available are wrong. The water lines don't line up with bulkheads view. The only scenario that make sense, is that in the haste of leaving England for Sweden, Chapman copied both the Caroline and the older but smaller Carolina drafts and somehow the bullhead's views were swapped. It took me a lot of waisted time to find this error. My nephew is a naval architect, so I asked his advice after months of heartache. He came back to me with the same conclusion that the draft was incorrect.
If I was using a CAD programme, it would have stood out like 'dog's b#lls' as the expression goes here in Australia.
Eventually I discarded my original plans after I bought the 1:30 scale ZHL Royal Caroline kit. Consequently I believe Max from ZHL also found out the same error in the draft, because the kit's bulkheads shapes are almost identical to mine, (after I found the error).
Comparing to the AToS Royal Caroline book who just used the draft as is.There is a remarkable difference in the shape of the bulkheads, between (mine and the) kit's to the AToS version.
By the way I received my draft plans from Malin Joakimson who worked at the Collection Unit Stockholm of the Swedish Marine museum and they are identical to the English version. The only difference is that Sweden gave me the plans for free, because in the interest of better understanding.
Happymodeling
Greg
 
I can't help thinking that everyone is confusing model shipbuilding as a hobby with professional level precision engineering. As far as I am concerned, a hobby (whatever it might be) is to get one away from the stresses of life - not deeper in! I don't want a hobby that involves endless study and practice with computer programmes etc., and a workshop full of expensive machine tools. Neither do I want to produce perfection by assembling expensive kits that have largely been produced by someone else using highly sophisticated laser cutting, photo-etching, 3D printing etc etc etc. Only to end up with something that has been duplicated in various degrees of accuracy in their thousands across the world. Whatever I build or draw may be far from perfect when viewed alongside an expensive kit, or CAD drawing, but it gives me relief from the stresses of modern living. I have also noticed that selling my imperfect models is really a very simple matter. On asking collectors why, they are generally in agreement that it is because each model is practically unique, and not duplicated in its thousands, (although I do occasionally repeat models after a few years have passed). One even said "You do not see painting by numbers works in national art galleries!" and that really sums it up. I believe that the more you move away from scratchbuilding, the less satisfying the hobby becomes. The most common statement that I ever hear is "I could never do that," when really, they could if they tried! Talking about centuries, most model shipbuilder here seem to be stuck in the 18th century or earlieras far as their models are concerned.:eek: I am practically the only one who builds model ships powered by steam or diesel engine, and built with iron or steel hulls!:cool:
 
G'day Bob
I can see your point about our hobby, but there a pont that you are not seeing correctly. An example which you mentioned is that: I want to produce perfection by assembling expensive kits that have largely been produced by someone else using highly sophisticated laser cutting, photo-etching, 3D printing etc etc etc.
A perfect example that we can use would be the ZHL Royal Caroline. As mentioned before, all the decorations are CNC copies, but my model will be unique because I'll be changing a lot of the areas, but still using the amazing carving. John and Maarten are 2 more modelshipwrights that are doing the same kit. What the three of us are doing is making our own mark on this kit. So consequently our three models will be similar at first glance, but a closer look there are going to be a mark difference.
That can be said for any kits. I have never built a kit straight from the box do you can say every one that I have built are unique.
Happymodeling
Greg
 
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G'day Greg
You missed the beginning of my statement, it should read Neither do I want to produce perfection.......! It altered the whole meaning!:)
I just don't understand why people who obviously have the skill to make something unique, continue to buy expensive kits of the same old subjects, even if they do alter them. To me, the fact that I make it all myself gives me more satisfaction that adapting something that a kit manufacturer has produced. As most of my life has been spent in the 20th century, I prefer modelling ships that were around within living memory of me being born (1944), so that was from about 1850 onwards. It doesn't make sense to me when modellers say we are living in the 21st century, and we should move on, when they are still stuck, for the most part, in the Napoleonic era!:cool: I like to produce models of obscure or semi-obscure ships, not an endless line of Victorys or Cutty Sarks, so beloved of kit manufacturers! As you, yourself said :
The only limitations that are on you,
are the ones that you put on yourself
Bob
France.jpg
 
shipbuilder said:
I just don't understand why people who obviously have the skill to make something unique, continue to buy expensive kits of the same old subjects, even if they do alter them. To me, the fact that I make it all myself gives me more satisfaction that adapting something that a kit manufacturer has produced.
Click to expand...

And therein is the clue. It is a hobby, in which some few have been successful in making a career. For most, though, it is a hobby.

There are some in the hobby that enjoy the process of lofting individual frames from original plans, then cutting, sanding, assembling each piece. Others, the pleasure is the build, with as little tedious sanding and shaping as possible. For the first, it is build from scratch. For the second, a kit.

Both builders have many choices in what they build, and build what pleases and appeals to them. Sure, SOME kit builders replace the kit wood or tweak the design in some manner, but more build it out of the box. There is pleasure and satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment. For others, the satisfaction is the result of truly impressive levels of detail and historic accuracy.

Whether using CAD, 2D or 3D modelling, or pen & paper, the outcome is similar - individual satisfaction. While the CAD draught can be a thing of mass produced beauty, the hand drawn draught is a work of art.
 
All very true, but I have never really felt that I had anything in common with anyone else here. I have tried my best to kindle some interest, but have failed in all respects. This is essentially a wooden ships and models forum, where my interest lies in iron and steel, sail and steam. That is just the way it is - each to his own!:cool:
Bob
 
What a excellent set of opinions and description of tools and methodologies.
Not to confuse the issue I became curious about the word “hobby”
And so:
“Hobby”



A hobby is a regular activity that is done for enjoyment, typically during one's leisure time. Hobbies can include collecting themed items and objects, engaging in creative and artistic pursuits, playing sports, or pursuing other amusements. A hobby is lengthy and always changing as interests and fashions change. By continually participating in a particular hobby, one can acquire substantial skills and knowledge in that area. Engagement in hobbies has increased since the late nineteenth century as workers have more leisure time and advancing production and technology have provided more support for leisure activities. As some hobbies have become less popular, like stamp collecting, others have been created following technological advances, such as video games.
Excerpt from Wikipedia”
So I would say to each his own. I enjoy trying do something I’ve not done before. Developing new skill sets and looking at the final product of my latest accomplishment.
 
well Bob my interest started with wood sailing ships and I moved on to steam and iron. My reason is after years of building wooden sailing ships I felt in a rut they are all built the same I wanted to up my game and challenge myself like building a scale steam engine.

for me i love the challenges of 3D computer modeling and cad drafting it is the other way around in my case. My first interest is the research and computer work ship modeling is just the subject to create by computer design.

learning computer design software is the goal and using a ship to achieve that goal rather than the goal of building a model ship by using computer design,
 
a story

years ago I was into wood carving and wood working. there was a big national show in my home town one year so I rented a table to show off wooden ship modeling. The subject started as a kit I used the bulkheads and planking all the carvings I did myself.
As I was demonstrating carving the figurehead someone in the crowd asked is that from scratch? my reply was well it started as a kit before I can finish I got oh so it is a kit and the crowd walked away.

I know what Bob is saying a boat from a box no matter what you personally do to it is still a mass produced product someone else designed and manufactures.
 
shipbuilder said:
All very true, but I have never really felt that I had anything in common with anyone else here. I have tried my best to kindle some interest, but have failed in all respects. This is essentially a wooden ships and models forum, where my interest lies in iron and steel, sail and steam. That is just the way it is - each to his own!:cool:
Bob
Click to expand...

and that is exactly what makes YOU special. if everyone started doing what you do then the comments would be OMG and another Bob merchant ship
 
I can't help thinking that everyone is confusing model shipbuilding as a hobby with professional level precision engineering. As far as I am concerned, a hobby (whatever it might be) is to get one away from the stresses of life - not deeper in! I don't want a hobby that involves endless study and practice with computer programmes etc.,


actually professional level precision engineering is my hobby or a part of my hobby. I love it, it carries me away, if you were to see my work station last nights dinner plates are still here because I am so involved in what I am doing it looks like I live in front of my computer work station.
 
By the age of 48, in late 1992, I was thoroughly fed up with the electronic "rat race," and took voluntary redundancy. I then decided that whatever I did from then on would be artistic rather than technical. Model shipbuilding and writing since then. When I did exhibit models in the past, I often heard background remarks "they are only kits!" which of course they weren't! I don't bother exibiting them any more. I don't even take them to the local ship model club either. I just take photographs of them, and nobody has ever asked me why I stopped taking the actual models, and they generally show as little interest in the photographs as they did in the actual models! It is a pleasant day out though! But collectors are always wanting them. Since the barque Gulf Stream got seriously damaged a month ago in transit, I have done very little, apart from working on my full-rigged ship drawing.
Bob
 
Because of this, some chinese manufacturer are dangerous for the "old" manufacturers. Designed with a 3D model, accurate and also in the meantime high quality timber........Without 3D-design such a kit-model like my La Salamandre would be not possible, and this 3D-modeling and transfering to laser-cuts was not copied by the chinese! No! This is done by themself.

ok this is a great point to ponder for those crying about Chinese copying other kits they are clueless about what it actually takes to produce the laser cutting files and the CNC carving files and the fittings and all the production work. YES this is all done by themselves.
is this a real danger to the old school ways? sure is better bring you high tech "A" game

There is pleasure and satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment. For others, the satisfaction is the result of truly impressive levels of detail and historic accuracy.

I use to think those guys worried about .005 thousandths of an inch or exactly how it might of been historically done. My thought was why torture yourself over the smallest detail that no one can see or even care about? UNTIL I began to study the steam engine of the Mississippi and figured out a part .005 thousandths of an inch to big won't fit and the parts won't move. Sooooooooo! hum it comes down to the personal Zen of the built.
 
While the CAD draught can be a thing of mass produced beauty, the hand drawn draught is a work of art.


I got to thinking what Wayne said about pen and ink drawings being works of art. I agree it is a rare thing to come across a one of a kind pen and ink drawing of a ship plan.

Harold Hahn was my mentor and before he passed away he gave me all his pen and ink drawings I have these stashed away and realized they are just sitting there for years, what to do with them?
because Harold was a recognized artist with work in a number of museums perhaps as an original work of his it might have some collectors value.

I am thinking maybe hold an auction and proceeds from the auction can be donated to help support this site.

if anyone thinks this might be a good idea I can post images of the drawings
 
some of the early ink on tissue paper are delicate they are around 40 years old a framed drawing looks really nice as is with all the holes and aged look.

this is the Kingfisher


004.JPG
 
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