New A/L kits

Dave,with all due respect,I bet you would struggle to build a modern Artesania kit without instructions.

They stopped including plans in their kits years ago........

Kind Regards

Nigel



the only way to find out is if you send meAlien a kit and i will give it a go.
i will do it right here in a build log so you can watch. :)

Dave you have put a smile on my face because I knew that is what you would say:D:D I do not doubt you could put it together just not sure it would be how the manufacturer intended it to be.I don't mean that in a negative way, but purely because modern kits tend to have more of a likeness to a Rubik's cube rather than follow shipbuilding practice.Without plans or instructions how do you know what goes where when you have a couple of thousand parts?At least on a jigsaw you have a picture to follow.If I had unlimited disposable income I would gladly send you a kit and watch you build away but sadly I haven't so we will have to agree to disagree:(

I understand Artesania's approach in trying to make the hobby more appealing to the masses by making unnecessary to be able to understand drawings,something that is vital when it comes to scratch building a model of a real vessel.Yes Artesania gain through increasing sales, but it is no bad thing that more people take up the hobby as a result.

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
actually, i never built a model ship kit but i have seen many and they are something totally different than how a real ship was built. What you are building is something in the end represents what a ship looked like and not how it is built.
So "instructions" are how that designer created it.
Question is if you have a working knowledge of how wooden ships are built you should be able to build any kit instructions or not.
 
DAVE AS BEFORE THAT IS DAVE STEVENS NOT THE DON FARRS ETC WHO DRIVES THE MARKET YOU SELL A KIT PROVIDE HOW YOUR EXPERTISE DESIGNED THE KIT NOT THE MODELER. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
 
Dave you have put a smile on my face because I knew that is what you would say:D:D I do not doubt you could put it together just not sure it would be how the manufacturer intended it to be.I don't mean that in a negative way, but purely because modern kits tend to have more of a likeness to a Rubik's cube rather than follow shipbuilding practice.Without plans or instructions how do you know what goes where when you have a couple of thousand parts?At least on a jigsaw you have a picture to follow.If I had unlimited disposable income I would gladly send you a kit and watch you build away but sadly I haven't so we will have to agree to disagree:(

I understand Artesania's approach in trying to make the hobby more appealing to the masses by making unnecessary to be able to understand drawings,something that is vital when it comes to scratch building a model of a real vessel.Yes Artesania gain through increasing sales, but it is no bad thing that more people take up the hobby as a result.

Kind Regards

Nigel
This is a very interesting discussion. I am working on a DeAgostini kit, but it was manufactured by Artesania Latina (indeed, it can now only be ordered from AL). As you have noted Nigel the instructions are fantastic. I was more than happy with them right up to the point where I decided that the kit was headed in a direction I no longer wanted to take. Suddenly I was adrift without a paddle because, as you have also noted, there are NO DRAWINGS with the kit.

Sort of humming in the background of this whole thing is the simple fact that absent of the influence of the SOS forum I would have just continued building the kit according to the instructions in ignorant bliss. It was only when I saw what a kit could be turned into that I found the instructions lacking (or rather, began wishing for more advanced instructions with drawings). In other words - the problem isn't with the kit - it is with the forum ROTF ROTF ROTF.
 
There are people like me that love to follow instructions. Just ask Zoltan as I bug him all the time about the Belle Poule build. ;)

Then there those that buy something and love to figure things out without the instructions. Like the Admiral.

Then there are those that do a little of both.

Remember what this forum is about folks. There are many more experienced people here that can put my models to shame, but that is not the deal. To those like Dave and others, then be a guide to those that don’t have a clue as to where to start.

The problem is that all of us that do have some experience under our belt forget where we came from. We know ship kits like the back of our hand and can build one with half the parts missing and wonder why you can’t do the same.

I am sadly not in that category as I need all the help I can get. Some things come more naturally to others and that is good and a blessing. Some not so and need some positive input.

I agree that the state of the art in ship kits have suffered and for various reasons.

I don’t have an answer, but I will say we are all in this together.

Peace.

Donald
 
This is a very interesting discussion. I am working on a DeAgostini kit, but it was manufactured by Artesania Latina (indeed, it can now only be ordered from AL). As you have noted Nigel the instructions are fantastic. I was more than happy with them right up to the point where I decided that the kit was headed in a direction I no longer wanted to take. Suddenly I was adrift without a paddle because, as you have also noted, there are NO DRAWINGS with the kit.

Sort of humming in the background of this whole thing is the simple fact that absent of the influence of the SOS forum I would have just continued building the kit according to the instructions in ignorant bliss. It was only when I saw what a kit could be turned into that I found the instructions lacking (or rather, began wishing for more advanced instructions with drawings). In other words - the problem isn't with the kit - it is with the forum ROTF ROTF ROTF.
Paul

This is excellent feedback.The big thing for me is that you could have completed the model solely using the instructions so the manufacturer has fulfilled their brief.No manufacturer can prepare for when the builder goes "off piste" and wants to create a more superior modelROTFROTFHaving said that Euromodel Como does provide much more detailed plans covering ships interior etc but did get some flack for the provided parts not matching the plans

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
it is like playing a musical instrument way, way back i was a drummer in a rock and roll band. The guitarist never had a lesson just picked up a guitar and in a short time was playing like a pro. He can listen to a song and in a few day come back and play it. I tried and no matter how hard i tried it was a struggle it just did not have what it took to play a guitar.

it seems to me there is a natural born talent that plays a part in everything. My son was a natural born artist and his drawing skills from the very start were way beyond his age. It is said it takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, he just "did it" right from the start.

It is very important to have good instruction manuals for a kit or any kit, not everybody comes from a womb with scratch builders knowledge
Zoltan


well i can debate that, i have seen 5 year old's play a piano like a 30 year pro. Where did that come from? must of been born with it.

the knowledge comes from forums like this one. Everything you need to know on how to build a model ship kit is here and on other forums. The skill to do it may come easy or hard but in time anyone can do it. You just can not expect any ship model kit company to include every last bit of information in a simplified set of instructions. You are expected to supplement information from other sources or personal experience.
 
I am with you when it comes to ZHL. I feel that it is a bit glorified here in this forum, no offense to anyone, of course, I also enjoy watching threads building models from them.

i do not think it is the policy of SoS to put any kit company on a pedicle to glorify it. If a builder comes to the forum and starts a build log and shows such enthusiasm for the build, really enjoying the building process and the kit they have chosen then who are we to say please curb your enthusiasm or don't build that here. As for me being on the staff it is not about the kit or the company or the subject it is about the builder.
 
I am with you when it comes to ZHL. I feel that it is a bit glorified here in this forum, no offense to anyone, of course, I also enjoy watching threads building models from them.

i do not think it is the policy of SoS to put any kit company on a pedicle to glorify it. If a builder comes to the forum and starts a build log and shows such enthusiasm for the build, really enjoying the building process and the kit they have chosen then who are we to say please curb your enthusiasm or don't build that here. As for me being on the staff it is not about the kit or the company or the subject it is about the builder.

I completely agree with you, in the end, it is the builder who is going to enjoy his ship and modify it or not to his liking. Of course, that is how it should be, have the freedom to post and build any kind of ship and brand each individual likes.

What I was meaning with my opinion is that although ZHL kits may be good, if you do the maths it costs as much as a Panart/Mantua/Sergal one. I personally love the die-cast metal and brass plated decorations from Mantua and although sometimes they are not quite smooth and need a bit of work, I prefer them to having to paint hundreds of little bare metal decorations. This is my point of view, of course, I just like the natural finish of the brass ones more (we could say I am not as good at painting!).

So that is why I said that because most people tend to choose the ZHL one over the price. I might be wrong and I also know that customs and other duties change over the countries but at least here in Spain, it adds up to almost the same price as a "brand" one.
 
I completely agree with you, in the end, it is the builder who is going to enjoy his ship and modify it or not to his liking. Of course, that is how it should be, have the freedom to post and build any kind of ship and brand each individual likes.

What I was meaning with my opinion is that although ZHL kits may be good, if you do the maths it costs as much as a Panart/Mantua/Sergal one. I personally love the die-cast metal and brass plated decorations from Mantua and although sometimes they are not quite smooth and need a bit of work, I prefer them to having to paint hundreds of little bare metal decorations. This is my point of view, of course, I just like the natural finish of the brass ones more (we could say I am not as good at painting!).

So that is why I said that because most people tend to choose the ZHL one over the price. I might be wrong and I also know that customs and other duties change over the countries but at least here in Spain, it adds up to almost the same price as a "brand" one.

I think that in your comments there is a misunderstanding about ZHL Models.

For most of the kits Max sells, he is just the middle man, a seller. Those kits are made by Chinese developers who won respect due to the quality of their kits. Quality that you will not find in what you call "branded ones". By the way, they are "Branded too". Their boxes have their names and logos.

For a few kits that Max sell as "ZHL kits" , I have not seen a serious complain from anybody here at SOS. A missing part or a section that do not fit as expected, those happens also buying the "non chinese branded ones".

The decorations of the "Chinese branded kits" are very good and compete in quality with any other branded decorations. Plus, if you have budget to buy the after market CNC decorations for a few models sell by ZHL, well, those are just fantastic.

One last important point here is "Customer Service" . ZHL Models offers a customer service that I have only seen on others Chinese developers, that do not sell through ZHL Models, but I wasn't fortunate enought the get such quality of customer service from the non Chinese branded kits. That was many years ago. Could be today the others non-chinese Branded kits have improved their customer services. Nevertheless, as an example, start of 2020, after 5 months of trying to get the missings parts from the De Agostini Vasa kit (they never delivery the correct ones), they accepted to refund my $1200 dollars. And I returned the Kit plus a box full of wrong parts they shipped me during those 5 months. BTW , a few months later, it happened the same with the De Agostini Sovereign of the Sea. Missing parts. This one I returned right away and got back my $1100. Not cheap kits at all.

About price, the kits that ZHL sell are not really cheap. There are a few cheaper than others, or they are within the market value or are more expensive. But how do you measure if the price is correct when for many of the kits ZHL sell there isn't a comparator and the price also depends on what you get inside the box (wood quality, decors quality, etc). What i do, is to search at SOS the build logs of the kit I am interested that ZHL sells. Then you take your own conclusion about the price and kit quality.

Bottom line, I "do not have any commercial relationship with MAX=ZHL models" but I have bought a few kits that he sells, under his name and or "branded". I assembled 2 of those and I do not have anything to regret at all. All the others I bought, from him, the boxes where carefully inspected. The wood quality was always what you were paying for. Nothing to regret there either. You have 3 months to claim any missing part. It will be shipped ASAP to you free of charge. Plus, as an exaple, I broke the lamp of my Pegasus during my final assembling of the Kit (1 year after I got it). Max sent another one to me free of charge. Could it be because I am a frequent customer ? Who knows.

Cheers
Daniel
 
I think that in your comments there is a misunderstanding about ZHL Models.

For most of the kits Max sells, he is just the middle man, a seller. Those kits are made by Chinese developers who won respect due to the quality of their kits. Quality that you will not find in what you call "branded ones". By the way, they are "Branded too". Their boxes have their names and logos.

For a few kits that Max sell as "ZHL kits" , I have not seen a serious complain from anybody here at SOS. A missing part or a section that do not fit as expected, those happens also buying the "non chinese branded ones".

The decorations of the "Chinese branded kits" are very good and compete in quality with any other branded decorations. Plus, if you have budget to buy the after market CNC decorations for a few models sell by ZHL, well, those are just fantastic.

One last important point here is "Customer Service" . ZHL Models offers a customer service that I have only seen on others Chinese developers, that do not sell through ZHL Models, but I wasn't fortunate enought the get such quality of customer service from the non Chinese branded kits. That was many years ago. Could be today the others non-chinese Branded kits have improved their customer services. Nevertheless, as an example, start of 2020, after 5 months of trying to get the missings parts from the De Agostini Vasa kit (they never delivery the correct ones), they accepted to refund my $1200 dollars. And I returned the Kit plus a box full of wrong parts they shipped me during those 5 months. BTW , a few months later, it happened the same with the De Agostini Sovereign of the Sea. Missing parts. This one I returned right away and got back my $1100. Not cheap kits at all.

About price, the kits that ZHL sell are not really cheap. There are a few cheaper than others, or they are within the market value or are more expensive. But how do you measure if the price is correct when for many of the kits ZHL sell there isn't a comparator and the price also depends on what you get inside the box (wood quality, decors quality, etc). What i do, is to search at SOS the build logs of the kit I am interested that ZHL sells. Then you take your own conclusion about the price and kit quality.

Bottom line, I "do not have any commercial relationship with MAX=ZHL models" but I have bought a few kits that he sells, under his name and or "branded". I assembled 2 of those and I do not have anything to regret at all. All the others I bought, from him, the boxes where carefully inspected. The wood quality was always what you were paying for. Nothing to regret there either. You have 3 months to claim any missing part. It will be shipped ASAP to you free of charge. Plus, as an exaple, I broke the lamp of my Pegasus during my final assembling of the Kit (1 year after I got it). Max sent another one to me free of charge. Could it be because I am a frequent customer ? Who knows.

Cheers
Daniel
I had a similar situation with Max. I didn’t believe I had enough of a certain wood. I couldn’t find the same piece online anywhere. Max shipped it to me, no questions asked. It didn’t arrive right away because of a combination of Covid and shipping issues in California, but I appreciated the efforts he went to in order for me to continue my build.
 
My AL San Francisco II came with instructions. Included 2 DVD's, some printed literature and some videos on several procedures for the build.
Does anyone know the difference between the AL San Francisco and San Francisco II kits. I have the 22408 kit which has an instruction booklet with a separate corresponding color step by step photo sheet and 2 double sided sheets of plans. This may be my next build after my current project of the Corel Ranger
 
Does anyone know the difference between the AL San Francisco and San Francisco II kits. I have the 22408 kit which has an instruction booklet with a separate corresponding color step by step photo sheet and 2 double sided sheets of plans. This may be my next build after my current project of the Corel Ranger

Here you can download the manual, instruction etc. of the San Francisco II kit 22452


 
The main difference was that the original SF kit was a single planked hull. The planks were thick and required bending and angle sanding on the edges to fit at areas of extreme curvature, like the bow. San Francisco has been such a favorite kit on the market that there is a version made in China and another made by DeAgostini besides the one made my Artesania Latina, and it would not surprise me that they are closely related, or even provided by Artesania. I also have an unbuilt SF II in a box on my shelf. It's a simple but attractive model, and great for beginners.

Artesania Latine
Artesania Latine SF II Comparison Pic.JPG

DeAgostini
Deagostini SF II Comparison Pic.JPG
 
Looks very similar. I built this about 7 years ago. Fun kit. My only gripe then was that the veneer for the hull was only just enough( with no wastage). It may have been just my kit. Everything else was okay. It was value for the price back then. The new kit appears to be motorized. The old one was not. The instructions are a lot clearer than the old. They appear to have simplified the dreaded front staircase!

Only gripe, they have replaced the mahogony / Walnut with plain beech? / lime. You now have to stain.

Both the old instructions and the new are available for download so you can compare the difference.!
 
This has been a fun avenue of discussion. It seems to me that with a degree of resourcefulness, one can do quite a lot to reverse the manufacturing short-comings of most kits. As many of you are, I am also watching Nigel work magical wonders with the AL Soleil Royal. On the surface of things - apart from the ornamentation - I would not think to buy this kit, myself; I just don't like the lines of the prototype and I find everything above deck to be over-simplified. HOWEVER, in the process of applying his primary planned design modification - which, was specifically to "stretch" the model to it's correct scale length - Nigel discovered that the stock bulkheads are actually quite representative of this time in French naval architecture; his hull has the lines that I would expect to see on a ship of this time and magnitude. This was really pretty astonishing to me, how my appreciation of the thing could change so dramatically.

While it may seem crazy to discard a large percentage of what comes in the box, I can appreciate the time-savings in knowing you can definitely use all of the ornamental pieces without having to modify those, as well. Speaking to Dave's point, earlier, a project like this really brings an audience into the mind of the builder. I will remain fascinated to watch the development of that project, just as I watch in amazement at what Paul and Kurt are doing on their respective builds, to name but a few.
 
Looks very similar. I built this about 7 years ago. Fun kit. My only gripe then was that the veneer for the hull was only just enough( with no wastage). It may have been just my kit. Everything else was okay. It was value for the price back then. The new kit appears to be motorized. The old one was not. The instructions are a lot clearer than the old. They appear to have simplified the dreaded front staircase!

Only gripe, they have replaced the mahogony / Walnut with plain beech? / lime. You now have to stain.

Both the old instructions and the new are available for download so you can compare the difference.!

I have the oldest one. 22 years ago (in 2000 precisely) i only built the hull and first deck then boxed due to country relocation. 2 years ago I got another one on eBay, because I am not 100% happy with the deck planking outcome. I will see if I re-plank it over the old planks or I do it all again. That's why i got another one. For my point of view the vintage one is the best of the 3 versions. At the same time on eBay, I also bought the version of the middle (now replaced), because it was different.

By looking the online pictures, the newest looks "cheap". But it is just a picture. AL need to change the Marketing team. Why are they posting those low quality pictures ?

Cheers
Daniel
 
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