New A/L kits

This is an interesting conversation... I'm not all the familiar with the Ships of Scale website beyond the basics, but would think, if it doesn't already exist, we would have a Kit Critique section within. Does that exist? And if not can the managers of the site construct one? I have been a kit guy for decades and depending on where the model is headed I either build to the kit or modify as necessary... And since I have purchased foreign kits, specifically AL, the instructions and annotations have been written in Spanish (as well as Amati kits)... With that said, ship building is ship building and I don't really need the instructions to put the kit together anymore. Some research, diagrams, photos and such do the trick for details. Would suggest that those just starting out could get great guidance from the Kit Critique section, which would highlight the details, shortcomings and the positive attributes of the kit... and like Wikipedia, allow discussion modification where and when appropriate... Just a thought.
I too don't really read the instructions anymore, and base on previous builds/photos, but I still think it is necessary to have good instructions. The best instructions I have seen of all the kits I have made (5) is the Brig Syren by Chuck Pasaro. Model Expo sell it. This is just my opinion of course.
If I were to critique most kits, I would say the sail rigging diagrams are usually very poor and hard to follow.
I read somewhere that generally the better instructions are with American kits and the poorer instructions are with European kits. The article I read even went on to say that the European manufacturers assume some familiarity with building kits. My take on this is that you need to start somewhere. So where do you start? Well my strategy was to opt for an American kit first.
 
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I'm really not getting why so much bashing on kits that seem quite decent to me

The kits were good when deagostini was releasing them, now suddenly they suck? because they miss walnut? come on...

On the Wasa topic and here the old up seems to be "museum quality" claim, who cares what's on the outside of the box? what's inside is clearly way better than any other kit available. The kit is head and shoulders above the other kits available that haven't been touched since the 60's or whatever
Corel decorations are atrocious, there's no other way to put it
Billing laser etched planking on decks is no better than it

And no i will not consider the carvings from zhl since, they are not a full kit. and along with shipping and taxes they cost nearly as much as the full kit from artesania, and you need one of the cheaper kits added to the price, going way over what artesania is asking for it's kit. Not to mention that they can't even be bent and just stand there on the stern galleries, everyone stops caring for accuracy when it's about zhl and pretty carvings somehow

The wasa from artesania also seems to be bigger than the other 2

The soleil royal from artesania is more expensive than the ZHL, but seems to have way way way better decorations than the one sold by ZHL, wich seems it's not even made by ZHL, if you actually hold the white metal decorations from the ZHL soleil, they really suck, they are bulky, thick and overall "meh", go and have a proper look at them, the Artesania really starts looking way better

The mantua/sergal has it's shortcomings that have been discussed extensivly over the years, and is on most places that you can find it slightly more expensive than the artesania one

I can't get better decorations for the soleil royal from zhl, but i can definetly get some walnut for the artesania if i really want to

Seems that, it's bashing new kits for the sake of bashing them, as if great utopic kits are available under any rock we kick, without bothering to actually compare to the current offer that actually exists for each of these ships

Anyone that is not familiar with kits would think from reading most of the coments on these new kits, that clearly there's better and cheaper options easily available, it's like the kits are beeing compared to a quality standard that simply does not exist

Also, go buy the Soleil Royal from ZHL and let me know what instructions they bring, or i can tell you now, they bring a CD

Maybe i'm the weird one, but instruction on a CD isn't something that will make like or dislike a kit, even not owning a CD drive for over 6 years, i send an email, they give me the files, and i print whatever i feel i want printed. It doesn't affect how i feel about the kit

To sum up, the kits are not perfect for sure, they are on the expensive side for sure, by all means point out what you feel is wrong with them, and what should be done better in your opinion, but give credit where credit is due, and don't bash a kit as if there's nothing good about it because of some promo on the box, when the kit is solid at the very least a solid alternative to what exists, if nothing else, because what exists sucks even more.

I personally am mostly glad it's moving forward, i can't remember even the last time we got in a few months a new model of a Wasa a Soleil Royal and now a Titanic from occre
I couldn't agree more with you. I think you are totally right. While it is true that maybe the price is high, you also have to take into account that other brands' price is also as expensive or even more.

I am with you when it comes to ZHL. I feel that it is a bit glorified here in this forum, no offense to anyone, of course, I also enjoy watching threads building models from them. But if we make numbers, they can be as expensive as any other brand which for example can be bought around Europe in my case and not imported from China with all the problems and over costs you may incur in.

All in all, as you said, they are moving forward and I am really glad that artesania opened again and it is making the effort to bring out new models although I must say that they are aiming to experienced modellers and maybe they should also care about beginners making some of their simpler models again and trying to make them more accurate or with more quality.

What each individual perceives as "perfect" varies a lot from one to another, that is why companies try to make the kit as good as they can, having in mind that they have to manufacture hundreds of them, and as "average" as they can so then one person can build it without any modification and feel as satisfied and have as much fun building it as another person who bashes it to the extreme.

Anyway, this is my humble opinion, having made three kits from AL and not having any problem with them nor with the quality. I didn't want to offend anyone with my words, just contribute to this wonderful community. Maybe I was lucky to buy the exact kit at the exact moment of fabrication! :)
 
I too don't really read the instructions anymore, and base on previous builds/photos, but I still think it is necessary to have good instructions. The best instructions I have seen of all the kits I have made (5) is the Brig Syren by Chuck Pasaro. Model Expo sell it. This is just my opinion of course.
If I were to critique most kits, I would say the sail rigging diagrams are usually very poor and hard to follow.
I read somewhere that generally the better instructions are with American kits and the poorer instructions are with European kits. The article I read even went on to say that the European manufacturers assume some familiarity with building kits. My take on this is that you need to start somewhere. So where do you start? Well my strategy was to opt for an American kit first.
Do you have a build log?
 
Do you have a build log?
no i don"t. but i did post some pics of my finished boat using a paperclip and ductape to keep my old phone's camera together. I might put one together for my next build, the Amati Bismarck, but I need a new phone first because I am embarrassed by the quality of the pictures I take compared to others. I also have to consider that it usually takes me years to complete a build. Not very practical for a build log. I am retired so I am not in any hurry.
 
no i don"t. but i did post some pics of my finished boat using a paperclip and ductape to keep my old phone's camera together. I might put one together for my next build, the Amati Bismarck, but I need a new phone first because I am embarrassed by the quality of the pictures I take compared to others. I also have to consider that it usually takes me years to complete a build. Not very practical for a build log. I am retired so I am not in any hurry.
We're in it for the long haul. Go ahead and take rickety pictures. We love 'em! You've seen my ratty photos. Don't be proud, share! It helps others along the way. I don't feel like we're in a competition on this forum.
 
The reason Artesania Latina (AL), OcCre and others go forward with "upgraded and redesigned" kits has to do with the more and more limited supply of "exotic" woods. As these manufacturers are producing hundreds of kits a year, the amount of quality lumber need for like American or European Walnut is significant. In Europe these types of wood are getting more and more expensive every year due to regulations and availability, which drives the costs of these kit up to insane levels. So they needed to change their business model or they will fall and go out of business.

The first phase was to change kits of single hull planking with walnut or Sapeli towards double hull planking (so cheaper wood as a base and top veneer of walnut or sapeli). Less exotic woods are needed and the appereance and looks of the ship was the same.
The second phase is were they are now, redesigning kits with al lot of laser-edge parts of cheap plywood and cheap wood for hullplanking. More and more pewter / white metal parts instead of quality wood which you have to model into cleats, dowels, rudders etc.
They add paint and stain within their catalog and online store which you can buy seperately and they will make more money! They are great marketeers so they will say that these kits are better engineered and have a more realistic appereance. "museum quality" which is ofcourse pure marketing talk.

The prices of the upgraded kits goes up or stays the same as the previous model, so in the end, profit goes up because they use cheaper materials, they keep an competitive approach to the market and create a more diverse product portfolio with lots of additional items. From a business perspective these are all big benefits! Thumbsup

Now, for us a modellers, this is not so good news. Thumbsdown In kits we loose the more quality lumber we like and appreciate or even love. It's becomming more expensive, because we will have to find another supply of additional wood if we like to use walnut o.e. :(
AL changed the paper instruction manual and drawings and placed them on a CD....who has a CD-/DVD drive nowadays? Luckily all drawings, photo instructions can also be downloaded from their website.

The overall quality of the kits, let's not take the types of wood into account are pretty good engineered. Okay, fair enough tho, the Spanish kit manufacturers are perhaps not as sophisticated and authentic looking as Italian brand kits like Amati, Corel or Euromodel. Perhaps the Italian kitmakers produce more classical looking kits, but most of the time poorly engineered and we experience the fun of that during the build.... (except the Amati line of Victory models)

I have experience with almost all kitmakers and I must say, OcCre, AL, Amati, Corel have great customer service nowadays, this was maybe worse some time ago, but they all have upgraded their services which is really a good thing. At least, this is what I have experienced in Europe. I can't tell for other nations overseas like Australian, USA, Canada, RSA etc. Maybe for you it's different!?

So, here we are and we're landed in the evolution-period of kitmakers and there is nothing we can do about it to stop or reverse it, except bashing the hell out of all these kits. ;)

Have fun modeling guys.

regards,
Pter
 
This is an interesting conversation.I actually think in some ways Artesania have improved some of their kits massively.Take Vasa as an example, yes the exterior planking needs a different layer of veneer if you wish to have a natural wood finish but the details are pretty damn close to the original.The instructions are probably more in depth than anything else on the market.

I was determined that I would not buy another kit,I have enough projects but Artesania's new Soleil Royal has got under my skin.The detail of the ornamentation is nearly exactly the same of the late Michel Saunier's model and considerable investment has been put into this aspect.There is something not quite right with the hull length and this needs investigation as it seems to be too condensed for a French hull of this period with 16 piercings.This is perhaps easier to resolve than you may think and I intend to do a log detailing the modifications.This will not be a build then alter like I have done before, more a case of redesign of parts of the framing before I start with the glue.

I have had to order direct from Artesania in Spain as nobody in the UK stocks this kit and it has been despatched today.I will do a review when it lands in the UK but not the instructions.I have downloaded these from their website and am unsure if I will print these out as they are 390 pages of full colour pictures!

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
I can’t wait to see your build, Nigel!
Thanks Vic

I am in no massive rush to start immediately but I am keen to suss out what is "wrong" with the hull.The website says 1/72 the box says 1/65 and my references state Soleil Royal of 1692 had a length of 168 French feet.I will include my findings when I review the kit.

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
Thanks Vic

I am in no massive rush to start immediately but I am keen to suss out what is "wrong" with the hull.The website says 1/72 the box says 1/65 and my references state Soleil Royal of 1692 had a length of 168 French feet.I will include my findings when I review the kit.

Kind Regards

Nigel
So you’re going with the 1692 version?
 
Vic the kit represents the 1692 version post rebuild, at least that is what the ornamentation ties in with.This is quite different to your model and that of Sergal's and the earlier Deagostini version.This kit was initially sold as a Partwork in Russia via Deagostini

Regards

Nigel
 
i am reading a lot about instructions or the lack there of in kits

just maybe kit manufactures are not in the business of teaching people the art of a shipwright so the problem might be the builder and the lack of knowing how to build a ship. It's not that the information is not out there.

sarcasm

i build from scratch no materials or instructions are provided but yet i can build a ship model. If i were to build a kit i do not need instructions.

could it be possible it is you and not them?
just saying
 
Dave,with all due respect,I bet you would struggle to build a modern Artesania kit without instructions.

They stopped including plans in their kits years ago........

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
i am reading a lot about instructions or the lack there of in kits

just maybe kit manufactures are not in the business of teaching people the art of a shipwright so the problem might be the builder and the lack of knowing how to build a ship. It's not that the information is not out there.

sarcasm

i build from scratch no materials or instructions are provided but yet i can build a ship model. If i were to build a kit i do not need instructions.

could it be possible it is you and not them?
just saying
Sure it’s me, Dave. I didn’t start with 10 years of experience working with wood or with model ships. But I’ll probably need instructions 10 years from now (if I make it that long).
 
Dave,with all due respect,I bet you would struggle to build a modern Artesania kit without instructions.

They stopped including plans in their kits years ago........

Kind Regards

Nigel



the only way to find out is if you send meAlien a kit and i will give it a go.
i will do it right here in a build log so you can watch. :)
 
Sure it’s me, Dave. I didn’t start with 10 years of experience working with wood or with model ships. But I’ll probably need instructions 10 years from now (if I make it that long).


i did not START with 10 years experience either

i started with researching the subject, reading all about it, staring at the build for hours on end, messing up time after time, searching through forums like this one, until i figured out how to do it.
instructions not included never stopped me.
 
Dave,with all due respect,I bet you would struggle to build a modern Artesania kit without instructions.

They stopped including plans in their kits years ago........

Kind Regards

Nigel



the only way to find out is if you send meAlien a kit and i will give it a go.
i will do it right here in a build log so you can watch. :)
My AL San Francisco II came with instructions. Included 2 DVD's, some printed literature and some videos on several procedures for the build.
 
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