Sails or No Sails

KeithLyall said:
Thanks guys for the quick responses ... so many good options to consider :). I had read about weathering the sails with tea ... it might have to be a leap of faith and just try it as the sails are ready made and no spare material to test on. I like the idea of fabric stiffener ... I read of someone using watered down PVA glue painted and formed before drying. I'll post how I get on. Thanks again.
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A note on weathering. Ships lost sails regularly on a voyage, a supply of sail cloth was carried and a sailmaker was part of the crew. See the better films like Master and Commander and we see a white sail catching the sun. The fastest way to make a sail unrealistic is to stain it with tea!. Your sails will darken with sunlight and dust over time and will soon lose the whiteness. Personally I do weather my sails, but only on the lower edges using very subtle watercolour washes applied with a brush. As a marine artist I'm highly practiced with the use of colour, colour mixing etc.
There are many YouTube videos using the tea staining process, all of them giving the impression that this is somehow an advanced professional approach you should aspire to. The comments section is filled with the usual "Wows" and "I'll sure be doing that on my next build"! In fact it makes the sail look like the dog has just relieved himself on it!
With regard to sails generally RN sails were linen based, very slightly tinged with cream. American sails were cotton and generally a pure white. I have always discarded the kit sails and made my own using lawn cotton. I don't sew! If you can find it George Bandurek has a book, Super Detailing the cutter Sherborne, which has an excellent section on his technique using pen instead of sewing (sewing is always off scale) The results look far more realistic than any sewn sail. Extracts from his book were on MSW.
 
I have had great success weathering sails with Ranger Distressed Ink & applied with a foam dauber that fits on your finger. There are different shades of the ink, so you have a choice. You can "weather" any part of the sail so everything looks random!
 
Hi I have recently completed my Endeavour by Occre which was my first ever build. I, like you, read many posts about sails, no sails, problems with the kit sails, how to weather them etc In the end I decided to follow the kit and use the Occre supplied sails with no changes. I have no problem with the colour as many aspects of the kit don't really show the weathered look. However they do seem to be too big. You can create some "billowing" shape to the sails by careful tensioning of the running rigging. However the many lines of rigging often clash with the shape of the sails and make it difficult to get nice curves.
I attach a couple of pictures to show what it came out like

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DavidH said:
Hi I have recently completed my Endeavour by Occre which was my first ever build. I, like you, read many posts about sails, no sails, problems with the kit sails, how to weather them etc In the end I decided to follow the kit and use the Occre supplied sails with no changes. I have no problem with the colour as many aspects of the kit don't really show the weathered look. However they do seem to be too big. You can create some "billowing" shape to the sails by careful tensioning of the running rigging. However the many lines of rigging often clash with the shape of the sails and make it difficult to get nice curves.
I attach a couple of pictures to show what it came out like

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Thanks David for the response and the images ... much appreciated. Looks to be a nice job you have made of your build.
 
RichardJD said:
On my way to finishing my model of the Endurance. Went for furled sails (fist attempt at trying this). Purchased some fine cotton fabric. I’ll probably try silkspan for furled sails on another model.

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Very nice work, and thanks for sharing ... I am looking at the Occre Endurance as my next challenge.
 
Or a potpourri of all the options...

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I used oft washed, very thin old white handkerchiefs for my Phoenix model. I pulled out threads at intervals to represent seams and used bought woven tape for the edges and bands. It seemed to work well. I agree that the OcCre supplied sails are a bit heavy looking but they do have prepared edges and sown lines (rather too spaced) to represent joins in the sailcloth strips. The jury is out on whether or not I fit them on Revenge. Spray on fabric stiffener and a hair dryer seem to be effective for bellying after fitting.
 
The choice of sails v. no sails or something in between is a discussion as old as the hobby itself. In my experience sails can indeed enhance a build. But if one is going to choose sails then one must be prepared to make up the very best sails as possible. Bad sails can ruin a great model quickly. The usual culprit to bad sails is scale…it is difficult to make sails look good to scale...way to easy to goof and make out-of-scale sails. So take extra time to learn the art of scale sail making…something I am still working on! :)
 
I am full brest in the 'no sail' camp. My reasons, just to be short:
- Even the thinnest material is too thick for a usual scale model. Just realize that the furled sail is thinner in reality than its yard.
- It is very difficult to make the sail look like the real one. Modellers are usually males without the sawing hands...
- It looks quite unnatural for a model to have sails (not mentioning even the blown up shapes). In my opinion the 'harbour' state is the best, with the rigging and only yards. One exception could be a diorama, which represents a 'frozen' moment so the sails would look natural under those circumstances.
- On a model with sails these are the first to go. A well built and preserved model can live for hundred years but the sails would be completely out of order after a few tens of years.
Just my 2 cents...
János
 
I have yet to make a ship with sails because I like the look, but I think one of my next ships will be sailed. I think it is well worth the experience and then I will be more in a position to comment on this topic.
 
KeithLyall said:
I am at the stage of the masts, yards, rigging and sails on my Occre Endeavour. I have a sail set and trying to decide whether to attach the sails or not. Part of me is of the view that it is a sailing ship so sails are essential, another part is that the sails will hide much of the model rigging. My better half is in the NO Sails camp to save trapping dust. Any thoughts? Also if I were to put sails on when am I best to do that. Currently the yards are not attached to the masts, so is it better to attach the sails to the yards and then instal the yards OR attach the yards to the masts and then attach the sails. Not done this before but putting sails on the yards and then attaching the yards to the masts semi possibly easier but welcome any views from those with experience. Thanks.
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I'm with Philski, sails and more sails. Install in yards before installing on masts. The sails will give you a beautiful volume effect on the model. I suggest you keep the larger sails semi retracted, so as not to disturb the view of the deck fittings details.

H.M.S. AGAMEMNON 041 (1).JPG
 
Bob Ellis said:
A note on weathering. Ships lost sails regularly on a voyage, a supply of sail cloth was carried and a sailmaker was part of the crew. See the better films like Master and Commander and we see a white sail catching the sun. The fastest way to make a sail unrealistic is to stain it with tea!. Your sails will darken with sunlight and dust over time and will soon lose the whiteness. Personally I do weather my sails, but only on the lower edges using very subtle watercolour washes applied with a brush. As a marine artist I'm highly practiced with the use of colour, colour mixing etc.
There are many YouTube videos using the tea staining process, all of them giving the impression that this is somehow an advanced professional approach you should aspire to. The comments section is filled with the usual "Wows" and "I'll sure be doing that on my next build"! In fact it makes the sail look like the dog has just relieved himself on it!
With regard to sails generally RN sails were linen based, very slightly tinged with cream. American sails were cotton and generally a pure white. I have always discarded the kit sails and made my own using lawn cotton. I don't sew! If you can find it George Bandurek has a book, Super Detailing the cutter Sherborne, which has an excellent section on his technique using pen instead of sewing (sewing is always off scale) The results look far more realistic than any sewn sail. Extracts from his book were on MSW.
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Hello, so your recommendation is not to use tea but to let the sail age by itself?
 
I have always added sails to my builds. I have not felt the need to do any type of stain on them. I found that installing the sails to the yards and completeing all the needed rigging prior to stepping the mast was the way to go. Yes you do have to keep track of the lines but with my BIG MITTS it was the only way for me to complete all the complicated rigging required.
 
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Thanks all for the many responses and options … much appreciated. Certainly had not expected as many contributions to this topic but I guess that’s the big benefits of the forum to share knowledge. I am currently thinking on the furled approach and have ordered some samples of lighter material. I will post how I go in my build log. Happy modelling all.
 
This is the fore topsail from HMS Victory, taken off the ship after the battle of Trafalgar October 1, 1805. This sails shows what dirt and 200 years of age will do to canvas. Sails do get dirty with age and use. This is why old timer modelers used tea to stain sails. It was the stain they had at hand, and they were unaware of it's long term effects due to acidity. The color of sails is largely personal preference, from ivory (cream white) to dark from dirt and age. You have to choose what you prefer for your model. If you want the new look, use an off-white or ivory color. Canvas was not bleached white like it appears today but was it's natural color. I like to have a little brownish or tan in my sails to suggest some usage. If your model is neat and pristine painted like brand new, you may want almost white sails.

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Bob Ellis said:
A note on weathering. Ships lost sails regularly on a voyage, a supply of sail cloth was carried and a sailmaker was part of the crew. See the better films like Master and Commander and we see a white sail catching the sun. The fastest way to make a sail unrealistic is to stain it with tea!. Your sails will darken with sunlight and dust over time and will soon lose the whiteness. Personally I do weather my sails, but only on the lower edges using very subtle watercolour washes applied with a brush. As a marine artist I'm highly practiced with the use of colour, colour mixing etc.
There are many YouTube videos using the tea staining process, all of them giving the impression that this is somehow an advanced professional approach you should aspire to. The comments section is filled with the usual "Wows" and "I'll sure be doing that on my next build"! In fact it makes the sail look like the dog has just relieved himself on it!
With regard to sails generally RN sails were linen based, very slightly tinged with cream. American sails were cotton and generally a pure white. I have always discarded the kit sails and made my own using lawn cotton. I don't sew! If you can find it George Bandurek has a book, Super Detailing the cutter Sherborne, which has an excellent section on his technique using pen instead of sewing (sewing is always off scale) The results look far more realistic than any sewn sail. Extracts from his book were on MSW.
Click to expand...
Agree totally: Thee to me is not the solution. An old Cotton Shirt -when I was building was my preference. Although I am not a marine artist I used any way a little color Too
I have always been against the so-called ready-to-use sail, which I have had some pretty protests mainly from Amati and Billing
 
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