Soleil Royal 1669 by Oliveras P. in Navios - planset information

WojtasS

WojtasS

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Hello all.
While following Kurt's(@DARIVS ARCHITECTVS) link to Sovereign of the Seas on modellismo.net I found out a very interesting topic.
Somwhere in Spain is(was?) an existing magazine that published plans of 1669 SR. From the pictures it looks like a very good copy of Tanneron SR.
Heller's model looks almost the same, but it's only my prediction I don't have such knowlage as @GuyM or @Hubac’s Historian
to make such comparisions

First and most important question: is there a way to buy them or at least scan them for a price?
Second question: can they be used to enhance Deagostini/Sergal/Mantua kits. For example using gunport layout and dimension of stern galleries. Or they are uncomperale and this probably end in full scratch build?


Does anybody have some more information about this planset?
I didn't find anything else that detailed besides some miniature that mixes Tanneron and Berain
forum.game-labs.net

Le Soleil Royal, 1670 (With Plans)

Le Soleil Royal (1670) Displacement: 1,630 tonnes Length: 61 m (200 ft) Beam: 15.64 m (51.3 ft) Draught: 7.64 m (25.1 ft) Complement: 836 Armament: 104 guns:
forum.game-labs.net
Post #138 and #139

Le Soleil Royal diario di costruzione di Mario - Pagina 10 - Forum Modellismo.net

Buon giorno Mario ai ragione mi ero spiegato male è la ultima fila di portelli a essere troppo bassa.Sono partito da disegni Sergal per fare l'impostaz
www.modellismo.net
DSC01736.JPGDSC01737.JPGDSC01738.JPGDSC01739.JPGDSC01740.JPGDSC01741.JPGDSC01742.JPGDSC01743.JPGDSC01744.JPGDSC01745.JPGDSC01746.JPGLXwF6r5.jpg
PS. I also found build log of SR from Deagostini or Sergal that made my jaw dropped. So far the best build of this kit I've seen . I suggest reading from 1st page

IL mio SOLEIL ROYAL - Pagina 7 - Forum Modellismo.net

grazie per gli interventi , innanzi tutto. Luca, per quanto riguarda le bigotte ho seguito le indicazioni dei piani mantua, semplicemente per il fatto
www.modellismo.net
 
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Oh and another information that I found in that forum but I'm not sure about it. This planset maybe what Heller acually based it's model on as it in 1/100!!! Also found two additional photos which are wery familiar to Heller's SR top deck

DSC01189.JPG
DSC01190.JPG
 
This is an interesting conundrum.The plans are obviously based on the Tanneron model which was what the Heller kit was based on. However the midships hull is fatter than both of these interpretations so there is an element of fresh ideas in the mix.

I have never seen the plans before and do not know where to obtain a set short of hunting on Ebay. They would produce a nice model that is a little different and with a more plausible hull form however it is very debatable that French First rates had a true bluff bow at this time period
 
Czesiek said:
Ciekawe jest to co sugerujesz...Może ktoś ma bliższe informacje i zechce sie nimi podzielic
Click to expand...
Właśnie na to liczę
.
NMBROOK said:
This is an interesting conundrum.The plans are obviously based on the Tanneron model which was what the Heller kit was based on. However the midships hull is fatter than both of these interpretations so there is an element of fresh ideas in the mix.

I have never seen the plans before and do not know where to obtain a set short of hunting on Ebay. They would produce a nice model that is a little different and with a more plausible hull form however it is very debatable that French First rates had a true bluff bow at this time period
Click to expand...

I knew somebody wiser would find such details. I can only point that there's something interesting. Maybe someone else will add sth to this discussion, because I don't know how to comment your part about true bluff bow. I'm assuming you're right:)

I kind of felt that searching will end up on ebay, but I'm counting that maybe someone from SOS has them
 
The ship was 164.5 pre 1670 french feet at the first (bottom) deck at the center; So, converted this means 53.73 meters, or 176 ft and 2 inches in English measurement. It was 44.5 pre 1670 french feet at its widest, which was 5 feet in front of the center and 2 to 3 feet above the waterline; this of course is how Laurent Hubac built it and doesn't compare to the Royal Louis of the same period. What is important here is that the width was carried very far aft, almost to the beginning of the stern galleries, barely losing 1 foot throughout that length. The ships hull was also more arched than any plan proposed with the bottom strakes ( préceintes) ending above the rear cannon ports on the stern, being cut by the three most rearward bottom battery cannon ports, either partially or wholy. In front, they would be higher than what plans show, being above the anchor rope holes. Take note that the front arches would be inclined inward as on the Royal Duc/Reyne and the anchor beam would be place similarly as on the Royal Duc/Reyne which is on the top deck, and not on the forecastle. So, many, many changes to be added to any plans out there.......
 
If understand correctly, this planset has many mistakes and it's not worth of trouble finding it.
 
Her are pics of the Van de Velde drawings of the Royal Duc/Reyne; notice the inclinaison of the front arches and the overall curvature of the hull. The Royal Duc was the ''little brother'' of the Soleil Royal, the latter being longer and wider at 2200 tons envisioned

royalduc1 (2).jpg

royal duc-reyne-1 (2).jpg
 
You can use the plan in question, but you will have to be mindful to modify the areas which need more attention....
The curvature can be done easily, but the width is where you'll need to do some work...
 
NMBROOK said:
This is an interesting conundrum.The plans are obviously based on the Tanneron model which was what the Heller kit was based on. However the midships hull is fatter than both of these interpretations so there is an element of fresh ideas in the mix.

I have never seen the plans before and do not know where to obtain a set short of hunting on Ebay. They would produce a nice model that is a little different and with a more plausible hull form however it is very debatable that French First rates had a true bluff bow at this time period
Click to expand...
Perfectly stated, IMHO.
 
WojtasS said:
Właśnie na to liczę
.


I knew somebody wiser would find such details. I can only point that there's something interesting. Maybe someone else will add sth to this discussion, because I don't know how to comment your part about true bluff bow. I'm assuming you're right:)

I kind of felt that searching will end up on ebay, but I'm counting that maybe someone from SOS has them
Click to expand...
Чешек сказал:
Ciekawe jest to co sugerujesz...Może ktoś ma bliższe information i zechce sie nimi podzielic
Właśnie na to liczę

This is the only thing you can count on, and nothing more!!
 
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Obormotov said:
Чешек сказал:
Ciekawe jest to co sugerujesz...Może ktoś ma bliższe information i zechce sie nimi podzielic
Właśnie na to liczę

This is the only thing you can count on, and nothing more!!
Click to expand...
I think I will stay with deagostini or find something that existed and has real plans not guessed or imaginary
 
Something real would be the tanneron Soleil Royal; It is said the tanneron used measurements from the 1692 Soleil Royal, the initial ship's hull dimension were never found ( fire in archives of toulon at the time, where all the ships' informations were stored). So he would have used the dimensions of that Soleil Royal because of their availability, and similar lenght and other dimensions; that use of that hull's dimensions was limited to the 3 main decks, as the upper part was different ( forecastle, quarter deck and poop deck).
Heller gave the right dimensions of the Tanneron model for their plastic model, except they screwed up the part below the waterline......It is not deep enough...
Just for information:)
 
GuyM said:
Something real would be the tanneron Soleil Royal; It is said the tanneron used measurements from the 1692 Soleil Royal, the initial ship's hull dimension were never found ( fire in archives of toulon at the time, where all the ships' informations were stored). So he would have used the dimensions of that Soleil Royal because of their availability, and similar lenght and other dimensions; that use of that hull's dimensions was limited to the 3 main decks, as the upper part was different ( forecastle, quarter deck and poop deck).
Heller gave the right dimensions of the Tanneron model for their plastic model, except they screwed up the part below the waterline......It is not deep enough...
Just for information:)
Click to expand...
I agree wit everything you say. I only ment we have no SR plans with ANCRE stemp on it. As for the Heller's model even if it had all mesurments done cooretly it's too small for me. We know what Hubac is doing with Heller, but I'd rather talk about sth that mortal can do in normal condisions ;)
 
Well, if you want to blow up the dimensions, think that the Heller kit is 1/100, which would help ease the calculations; for every centimeter you multiply by the scale you want...Say 1/75, then it would be 1x 1.5 o get it 50% bigger, and 1/75 in scale....
As for Hubac, he does beautiful work, and I agree that it is beyond a lot of people's capacity or patience, but I modified mine also, and I'm very far below in the talent area:)))) But if I would have known at the beginning I was going to go through all that, maybe I would have done it a different way:)))) nothing too complicated here, just extra parts to cut out, and a few purchases to enhance the 1670's decor.....

IMG_4924.JPG
 
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