state of the art model ship building

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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I started this topic to cover a wide range of subject material, from scratch building vs kit building, research, building materials, plans and methods of construction.

To start things off I will begin with the following statement from another topic from another forum. (MSB)

Like on any forum though, the information tends to get lost deep down in the site.

As an individual it’s impossible for anyone to take and organize that information into any real useful format for the members. There's just not enough hours in the day . As good and informative as build logs can be even they are limited in their potential because just like forums if you don't know the information you are looking for is in them, how do you find it?
Now, if a group of dedicated modelers could put their heads together and take on a project where all this information can be sorted and cataloged that it would certainly be well worth the effort.

This is true if your looking for specific information odds of finding it is like looking for that needle in a hay stack. If your a beginner and you do not know the proper terms then finding what you need is even harder. Forums are full of all kinds of tips and hints, research information etc. the problem is this information is fragmented and scattered in the most unlikely topics. To make things ever worse information is also scattered throughout different forums. Some forms do not allow taking posts, images or information and using that information on a different forum. Now a builder not only has to search a forum but now they have to search for different forums. It would be a big benefit to this hobby if there were one database where all forums and sites contribute to. That is easier said than done because different forums have different rules, formats and cover different subjects. The bigger a forum gets the less effective it becomes unless there is a staff of editors constantly sorting and updating information.
this site is in itself a research tool and resource. When new members join they are asked to start a build log. The build logs become the library of research material. you don't have to be a pro to do a log because all levels are needed.
Volunteering material is what we are all doing, just look at the amount of information which is being posted on SOS MSB and NBM.
we are a community of hobbyist and we need to build our own data base aside from the academic community of how to and where to look for information and share that information.
 
As Always Dave, A mighty idea, and A MIGHTY TASK, count on me to help as much as I can, with my limited tech. knowledge, will be available. THANKS FOR WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACOMPLISH FOR THIS HOBBY. Don
 
Can't say that I even know what "state of the art" means! Looked it up on Google, and still don't really understand. If,as it seems to indicate, it means the highest level of achievement, I don't see how it can be applied to building kits, although I doubt if many will agree with me!
Bob
 
An interesting idea, whenever I am looking to purchase a new model kit I search numerous forums to look for build logs, to see what problems there may be and to see what you get in the box. When ever I get some free time during the day at work or when I am having my breakfast I read through build logs, not just ships, but also planes, cars, trains and AVFS on several different forums. I find it a good way to learn new ideas on building and detailing models. A big problem seems to be the number of builds that are started but never finished, you can read through several pages and suddenly no more. The other problem is instead of pictures you get that awful message from a certain photo storage site. Whilst I enjoy the actual building of a model I also enjoy the researching of the real thing, I built a model of a Paddle wheel Mine Sweeper recently, not a well known subject and I found lots of photos taken by a crew member during WW2, it brought the build to life so to speak, I was modelling a real ship with a real crew, brave men who served their country, doing an important job clearing mines and who probably never got any public recognition. Searching through various forums to me is just part of the research process.
Cheers Andy
 
For anyone interested, here is a site that displays the finest ship models in the whole world: http://www.shipmodel.com/ They are all scratchbuilt, of course. Click on the builders names on the right to view their work. Incidentally, I am NOT amongst them, I am now probably too old to achieve that level of workmanship (73). Bob
 
This is a model of the clipper Nightingale, by Donald McNarry (See American Ship Gallery - above):
http://www.shipmodel.com/files/nightingale-waterline-nightingale-mcnarry0004.jpg
It is only a few inches long!
Bob
 
shipbuilder post_id=22770 time=1505940135 user_id=464 said:
Can't say that I even know what "state of the art" means! Looked it up on Google, and still don't really understand. If,as it seems to indicate, it means the highest level of achievement, I don't see how it can be applied to building kits, although I doubt if many will agree with me!
Bob

I guess because I used the title I might as well define it and what I meant by it

"state of the art" in this case is the point in which something advanced to. Take the classic image of the old man sitting on shore carving a hull from a block of wood and using a knife. Looking at someone shaping a hull with a CNC machine using computer code is the state of the art or how things advanced from using a carving knife to machine.
Any subject from where it started to the point of where it is now "start of the art" and where it is headed to.

highest level of achievement is another way of saying state of the art but not always the case because sometimes something can take a down turn and degrade which is still considered the present "state of the art"
 
If the present state of information on model ship building is scattered and fragmented in different forums and the information within the forums are in state of chaos then what is a beginner to do? This brings up a subject of practicum vs free information in build logs and forums. Lets explore the pro and cons, one comment is why pay for building information when it is offered for free. Off the top this sounds reasonable but the reality sheds a different light. As stated above you are going to spend a lot of time sifting through tons of comments and information looking for what you need to know. Secondly the information may or may not be correct. A practicum offers a well structured lesson plan from start to finish. Another comment is a practicum is one persons take on building a subject as where on line free information gives the builder options or different ways to solve a problem. Ok that sounds reasonable, but if you in roll in a class guess what? You have one teacher or instructor standing at the head of the class “teaching” and not everyone in the room adding their 2 cents. I see no problem with getting your information from one source as long as that person knows the subject being taught. I am really not that interested in the subject, you are missing the point of a practicum. Advanced builders do not use practicums they write them so practicums are for beginners or intermediate builders and they are about teaching model ship building. As a beginner going through a step by step practicum by the end should be stating “look what I learned” and not look what I built. The practicum idea is to take a builder from a starting point to being able to advance to the next level based on knowledge. Practicums serve a very useful purpose in the hobby, they may not be for everyone because some people like to blaze their own trail or love the trial and error method.
 
Shaping the hull with a CNC machine doesn't mean anything to me - I don't even know what a CNC machine is (I will look it up after completing this post). But it does sound like the machine and computere are doing the work rather than the ship modeller. I write lots of practicums, but even the free ones are seldom taken up. Really, with kits, someone else has done all the design work and present the whole thing is in a box ready for cutting out and assembling. I would say that "state of the art" applies only to the designers methods, and not the person who purchases the kit, and that simply does not appeal to me! If it is just a hobby to enjoy, without having to go to the trouble of geting the plans and assembling all the materials, and then figuring out how to put it all together, stick with kits. But if you want to advance as a model shipbuilder, I believe the kit should be left behind in order to progress to better things. The most common statement I hear is "I could never do that!"
Bob
 
Just looked it up - Brilliant stuff, but certainly not model shipbuilding. Feeding a plan into a computer and sitting back whilst a machine does the work - not for me, I am afraid! This is how I start and finish. Gather all the bits and pieces together, and build it. Cost next to nothing, tools required, very few, satisfaction considerable.
Bob
 

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shipbuilder post_id=22797 time=1506003505 user_id=464 said:
But it does sound like the machine and computere are doing the work rather than the ship modeller.

Let me give you a different perspective. I own both a CNC and a laser cutter. I use these tools to fabricate objects I could not easily do by hand or to perform repetitive tasks when I need multiple of the same object. These tools are both a time saver and enablers (like all tools). These tools only do what the operator tells them to do. So first, I have to draw the object in CAD and refine it until I have a complete 3D design. Depending on the object, this is no small task and takes a lot of practice and skill on it's own. Once the design is finalized then the CNC or laser can be used to produce the part. But the original idea and design still comes from the modeler. It's just another method to building a model... no better or no worse than any other method. Someone once told me that I really wasn't painting a model because I was using an airbrush. Tools of the trade ... it is what it is.

I don't agree that scratch building is a higher form of modeling than kit building. In-fact, every one of my kit builds includes some form of scratch fabrication or material replacement. Take a look at some of Dave Blake's models where he uses his "paint with wood" technique of material replacement.. it's a kit but looks as good or better than any scratch built model.

I believe in appreciating all models regardless of build method or skill level. It's a hobby.. meant for fun. Although I have been building for 50 years I have never once entered a model contest for the simple reason that I believe each modeler should be the ONLY judge of their own work. In other words,,, if it looks good enough for me, then it's good enough. Don't need a ribbon. :)

Sorry for rambling... By the way Bob, your models are AMAZING!!
 
Shaping the hull with a CNC machine doesn't mean anything to me - I don't even know what a CNC machine is (I will look it up after completing this post).

CNC is to program a machine to do the actual cutting C computer N number C control. XZY moves the cutter in 3 directions

But it does sound like the machine and computere are doing the work rather than the ship modeller.

oh yes that is a debate all in itself. I think its more as not a machine doing the work but more like the work shifted from cutting to having sit down and draw a part, program that part into CNC and then operating the machine. to this day and after many hours of work I still can not create a 3D printing file. Machinist is a skill unto itself.

I write lots of practicums, but even the free ones are seldom taken up. Really, with kits, someone else has done all the design work and present the whole thing is in a box ready for cutting out and assembling. I would say that "state of the art" applies only to the designers methods, and not the person who purchases the kit, and that simply does not appeal to me!

I agree to that state of the art is pushing the edge forward by designers and manufactures, however they base their work on what is going on with the hobby in general. so to some point everyone in the hobby is moving forward and helping to move innovation.


If it is just a hobby to enjoy, without having to go to the trouble of geting the plans and assembling all the materials, and then figuring out how to put it all together, stick with kits.

no argument here


But if you want to advance as a model shipbuilder, I believe the kit should be left behind in order to progress to better things. The most common statement I hear is "I could never do that!"


As a beginner the "kit" is a good starting point to advance then yes there will come a time to leave the kit behind and move on. "I could never do that" is not correct and yes I hear that a lot myself. My reply to that is you have the skills to build a kit you can build from scratch, the skill set is the same.
 
I can't be bothered to learn CAD, it would probably take me months and months, but I do draw my own plans from time to time, but with pens, rulers and French Curves. The problem with kits is that you are building what someone else wants you to build, (and usually for a hefty price) consequently, the world is flooded with Cutty Sarks, Bountys, Victorys, Constitutions etc. I am a bit of a dinasaur, I quit the rate race (marine communications) in late 1992, after 32 years of steadily increasing "state of the art" equipment that I loathed. I took up ship model building, writing, and a few other practical skills, deciding never again to have anything to do with high technology, apart from maybe repairing domestic electrical equipment, merely to save money! :banana-dance: t took me about a week to make this drawing. I have also done the deck layout as well. It is a named ship, bvut I will not be disclosing which one at the moment, because it will eventually be included in one of my manuscripts. It is a merchant ship, of course, the ports were just decoration, painted on, and did not conceal guns! :cool:
Bob
 

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My reply to that is you have the skills to build a kit you can build from scratch, the skill set is the same.

Yes, that is very true, and I have known it for years. But still, modellers who obviously have the skills just convince themselves they haven't. I, on the other hand, have never built a kit successfully. I probably could, if I put my mind to it, but the truth of the matter is "I don't want to!" :lol: Same goes for learning CAD or 3D printers etc.

Bob
 
I write lots of practicums, but even the free ones are seldom taken up. Really,

Bob would you expand on this a little, I wonder why they are seldom taken up.
What is your views on why
 
bob you and I are on the same page when it comes to the actual building of a model. I am a wood worker and carver. I carve things with a chain saw out of logs that weigh in at a ton or more down to fine carving and wood working. I love the feel of a sharp cutting tool controlled by my hand and not a machine. but I am also schooled in drafting, CNC machining, CAD work etc that is because way back I was a draftsman using a T square and drafting table State of the art forced me to learn new ways to keep my job. Now long retired I choose to use whatever methods to get the job done even 3D printing or CAD work. But still love those hand tool.
 
The problem with kits is that you are building what someone else wants you to build, (and usually for a hefty price) consequently, the world is flooded with Cutty Sarks, Bountys, Victorys, Constitutions etc.

and I will give you my take on why that is
 
The reason the readership is so small is undoubtedly the fact that I only build merchant ships. I am told that nothing interesting ever happens on merchant ships, and warships are far more romantic and interesting. In actual fact, in peactime, warships are very boring and are one long round of drills and discipline. Life on merchant ships is far more varied, especially on the old passenger liners. I have sailed in ships carrying general cargo, iron ore, coal, cement clinker, bulk cargoes, wood pulp, logs, oil, and passengers, and the life was always interesting are varied. But if a war did crop up, merchant ships were invariably dragged into it anyway, so those who thought that guns and sea battles were far more romantic, still got their wishes granted, even if they were in the merchant navy :lol:
Here is a freebie: http://payhip.com/b/krO6 scroll down a bit when it opens to get the free download button. The synopsis has been viewed 3,849 times, but only 268 persons have been sufficiently interested to actually download the whole thing! I did discontinue it after nine issues, but the disappointment was so great amongst my dozen or so regular readers, that I started producing them again. When I stopped, I found that I actually missed writing them - it keeps my brain active, doing all the research. A number of my readers have sent me images of models they have produced from reading them and they are all very good, so I am making some headway! Each issue contains at least one ship plan, and all for less than the price of a cup of coffee.
Bob
 
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