state of the art model ship building

[donfarr]

Good Debate and Discussion now for my 2 cents from an INTERMEDIATE MODELERS STANDPOINT, I LIKE TO CALL THE MODELS THAT I LIKE TO DO BOTH POF AND POB SEMI KITS; HERE GOES first BOB YOUR MODELS ARE TRULY WORKS OF ART WHICH I COULD NEVER COME CLOSE TO IN EITHER SMALL OR LARGER SCALE,...the bulk of the hobby is made up of BOTH NOVICE AND INTERMEDIATE MODELERS, BOB IT IS MORE THEN HAVEING OTHER PEOPLE DO THE WORK FOR YOU, IT IS AN ENTIRE PROCESS BOTH KITS AND SEMI KITS HAVE MUCH SCRATCH BUILDING INVOLVED,talking about my modeling in general AT MY AGE(79) the skills and time are on the decline, so if I WANT TO ENJOY THIS LIFE SAVING HOBBY(FOR ME THAT IS), ANY THING THAT CAN MAKE MY BUILDS BETTER AND NOT TAKE YEARS TO DO(WHICH I DO NOT HAVE) I WOULD USE ANY ADVANCED METHOD TO DO MY MODELS,,,,,,MOST INTERMEDIATE MODELERS AND NOVICES HAVE NOT GOT THE SKILLS OR THE TIME TO DO REAL SCRATCH BUILDS, THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT THEY SHOULD BE NEGLECTED IN OUR COMUNITY,,,,,,an example that I like to use is the ADAPATION OF LASSER CUTTING THAT WAS DONE MANY YEARS AGO, not having to use scroll saws etc to cut out parts most of the time inacuratly laser cutting did both give accuracy and convince, AS THEY SAY TIME MARCHES ON, NEW TECHNOLOGY(WHICH I DO NOT UNDERSTAND, BUT WILL USE IT TO HELP MY BUILDS, ASTHGECTICALL, HISTORICAL,ACCURACY, TME,ETC) to my advantage keeping the builds enjoyable and changleing at the same time,,,,,, I HAVE THE GREATEST RESPECT AND ADMORATION FOR THOSE THAT HAVE THE SKILLS TO PRDUCE SCRATCH BUILD OR EVEN KIT BASHED BUILD AS SEEN ON THIS AND OTHER FORUMS, but I and the majority of the builders I talk to feel the same way, if you have LEARNED OR HAVE THE GOD GIVEN TALANT TO DO THESE KINDS OF BUILDS WE CAN ONLY LOOK AND ADMIRE THEM,,,,,, JUST MY 2 CENTS. Don

 

[shipbuilder]

I am not far behind you in age, being almost 74! The question of time to build often crops up, but how long does it take you to build a kit? Every time I ask anyone, it is either months or even years! I am too impatient for that sort of thing, and most of my models are completed within 50 hours! I don't mean that I start a model and complete it just over two days later though. Sometimes I don't do any modelling in a day, other days I will do half an hour, sometimes two hours, but even so, it doesn't take all that long to complete them! Most modellers do have the skills, but tell themselves that they don't! I have a hobby bandsaw that speeds things up, and also a drill press that is very useful, but neither are really necessary. I have had my small Unimat lathe for over 40 years now, but when I was at sea, I used a small rudimentary lathe that I made from a 6 Volt drill. Here it is. Neither do I have the patience to mess about with hundreds of tiny knots, preferring to just glue the rigging on in short lengths. Not everyone has the money to buy CAD programmes or 3D printers or expensive wood-cutting tools, (or even time to learn to use them), but don't seem to mind paying hundreds of dollars for kits. I am offering a quick, cheap alternative that does not require a great deal of space, money, or expense to produce results. Recently, an 80-year old told me that he could never make tiny rails by soldering 38 swg wire. (This was at the local ship model club). I demonstrated how to do it. He didn't say much, but at the next meeting, brought some rails along, and said he had never realised how easy it was! If you search here on SOS for "Roma" you will see what a member produced after following my general shipbuilding instructions. He surprised himself, and came up with an astonishingly good model.
Bob

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

The problem with kits is that you are building what someone else wants you to build, (and usually for a hefty price) consequently, the world is flooded with Cutty Sarks, Bountys, Victorys, Constitutions etc.


This is one of the pros for scratch building, that is, the subjects to select from is mind boggling. So why are the same subjects manufactured over and over?

To begin with the bottom line for any kit manufacture is to make a profit and not take unnecessary risks.

First to consider is the fact consumers are creatures of habit. They will purchase what they are familiar with. Ford, Chevy and Mini Cooper are well known makes of cars a Depaul is unknown and unlikely to sell. This applies to model ship kits, a person looking for a kit to build will click on the Bounty because it is well known they will not click on the Erebus because even though it is a famous ship and it would make a good subject little is known about it by the general public. Kit makers will not take a chance on an unknown so they will not produce a kit of the Erebus or any obscure subject.

R&D for a new subject is costly and time consuming a kit maker will search the market and produce their version of a subject that has a proven record of sales. This is not cheating or cutting corners it is how business is done.

Anyone or business may think oh boy not another Bounty kit, but on a world wide scale there are potentially thousands of customers out there for a Bounty. As a customer i think sure there may be thousands of Bounty models but there is only one in my house and that is what the manufacture is betting on.

 

[shipbuilder]

Ah - Erebus - who would want to build anything so obscure? :lol: I guess I did! :lol:
Not particularly detailed, as all the deck detail was covered in ice and snow. It took 22 hours to build (timed on a stopwatch). That included making the display case and carrying case. I sent it to a London auction house, where it sold for £300.
I never build very famous ships, because serious collectors are rarely interested in them.
My practicums continue trickle out slowly, but this morning, I awoke to find 14 had gone in the night, ranging from £1.49 up to £8. Nothing to do with mentioning them here, as they went to a previous buyer! :banana-dance:
Bob

 

[mrshanks]

Outstanding work Bob. Keep the pictures coming!!

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

Ah - Erebus - who would want to build anything so obscure? :lol: I guess I did! :lol:

:greetings-clapyellow: for the love of Pete what are the odds of you building the Erebus that is sooooooo! cool pun intended

I picked it because it is famous but an unknown model and lol and behold here it is

The Erebus started out as a mortar gun boat and refitted at an artic exploration vessel. These gun boats were used because they were built really strong and they would be able to take the extreme artic.

good for you Bob you are doing more for this hobby by the sheer diversity of your work than anyone :greetings-clapyellow:

man that is a nice model the owner got a good deal we have $ and no pound sign so 300 I would of paid that in a heart beat.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

you know the Erebus wreck has been found and an archaeological study is being done. Not only that but it is on the list of project subjects for this site as a plank on frame model. It is a bit down the road because there is a lot of work to be done before it can be offered as a building project.

 

[shipbuilder]

I completed the model on the 7th March, 2008, long before the wreck was discovered. They have also found the Terror now, still packed full of artefacts! The price it fetched was 300 GB pounds. Here is another pcture of the model taken from a low angle, and converted to negative, to give a night effect. It depicts the ship as she may have appeared several years after being abandoned. Very little detail as it was covered in ice and snow. The hull is two or three inches long!
Bob

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

As a note of interest, is the fact that the majority of major kit manufactures now have some portion of their kits designed and manufactured in China.

An interesting statement, and perhaps something to look into. However, if a model builder opens the box and likes what he sees it is ill relevant how or where the kit was made or for that matter who made what.

I am not a kit builder so it is not possible for me to comment from personal experience which kits are best. If i were to have a sample of all the manufactures kits before me i could compare kit to kit and list all the pro and cons. Nor could i depend on a survey taken from ship kit builders which kits are best because it is very subjective. I have had builders tell me this or that kit is the worst thing i ever tried to build and the next person tell me it is the best thing they ever built. What i can do is scan model ship forums and get a general idea of different kits and kit makers. From what i do see is manufactures like ZHL do indeed produce a quality product, and this may be a reason other manufactures of kits will have pieces and parts made by other companies in China and elsewhere. This is not a case of junk made overseas as a matter of fact these companies are not some back water business trying to hack out parts with primitive tooling, these are tech savvy businesses using state of the art 3D printing, laser cutting and CAD design work. As a maker of kits i personally would think twice before i invest big money in buying a laser cutter and take a good look at having someone who does have a fast, accurate cutter to do what i need done.
I think it is a very possible kit makers are using whatever resources are available to keep prices low and quality high.
The landscape for model ship kits is changing due to global manufacturing. A small mom and pop company can not compete with big companies nor can outdated businesses retool to keep up with the latest methods. The kit making business is on a track to blending into one big operation. A company like ZHL produce their line of kits as well as parts for a number of other companies. An example of this is, it takes a number of separate businesses to produce the Lumberyards Halifax kit. It is called the Halifax by the Lumberyard but in reality the guns are molded and cast by someone, the laser cutting is done by someone else, the 3D printing is another company, rough lumber is cut by a saw mill, plans are by Harold Hahn. The Lumberyard is where it all comes together as a kit. If we do this so do other companies.

 

[donfarr]

And you do come up with a quality product,,,,,, THIS REMINDAS ME OF WHEN I STARTED MY PROFESSIONAL CARRER AS A CONSTRUCTION ESTIMATER AND PROJECT MANGER, A LARGE DOLLAR VALUE COMPANY WITH A MODERATE OFFICE PERSONAL,,,,when I first started in 1960 the Company did all the carpentry and concrete phases someties a total of over a hundred men per job, we did very large construction in SOUTH FLORIDA at one time rated No. 66 for dollar value for total CONSTRUCTION, as the years passed around 1964 or so THINGS CHANGED where we SUB CONTRACTED all of our WORK OUT(FORMING< CONCRETE POURING< CRANES<ROUGH AND FINISHED CARPENTRY< AND MORE,,,, MY TERIFIC BOSS AND OWNER ONCE COMPLAINED I DO NOT WANT TO BE A BROKER) WELL TO BE COMPETITIVE WE HAD TO BECOME BROOKERS LIKE IT OR NOT, THIS WAS WHAT IT WAS and still is,,,,,and Dave I like to call your kits SEMI-KITS, the one thing you did not mention was INSTRUCTIONS TO ME THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE WHOLE BUILD EITHER KIT, SEMI-KIT or SCRATCH BUILDS, THIS IS WHAT SEPERATES THE GOOD BUILDS OR THE THROW AWAYS AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN, AGAIN MY PET STATEMENT IS 3-D INSTRUCTIONS GEARED TO NOVICES AND INTERMEDIATE MODELERS ALIKE, THE BETTER MORE EXPERIENCED MODELERS CAN STILL PRODUCE GREAT MODELS EVEN WITH POOR INSTRUCTIONS AND PLANS, but the majority of ship modelers is of the novices and intermediate builders and these are the ones all manufacturers want to keep bringing back, MY 2 CENTS AGAIN.Don

 

[shipbuilder]

I find that ship modeling has now become far too commercialised for me as it is over 90% kits. This has been caused by the sure and certain (and also incorrect) belief that "I could never do that, and don't have the time, or money for tools anyway!" attitude! I am now hovering on the very brink of giving up shipmodelling, and this year have only produced two models so far, where I once produced between 14 and 17 a year! Even when I am building one, I dare not even mention it to collectors, or they would never leave me alone. So the first thing they know of the latest builds is when they are completed. Even so, I am often getting "Whatever you build next, I want it, just let me know when it's complete!" and that subjects me to so much pressure that my interest is now in serious decline. When I took my last one to the local ship model society, there was not even a flicker of interest, but it sold within hours. I never advertise them, but the fact that I am under constant pressure from collectors to produce more, or make larger ones, or totally different types such as Napoleonic warships has made the production of them feel like a burden. I am moving more into writing about my chosen nautical field that is merchant ships ships built between about 1850 and 1965. Again, when I pass my drawings round at the ship model meetings, eyes continue to glaze over. I am beginning to realise that if I produce well illustrated articles or books, there will always be a very small percentage of enthusiasts who will want them, and unlike models, no-one will be disappointed at having missed one. Here is my latest drawing - a sail plan of the British four-masted barque Clan Galbraith. Bob

 

[The learner]

I am amazed at how the hobby has advanced in the last 10 years and Computers and CNC Machines has become part of that. I also agree with Dave Farr ( I will be turning 78 soon) any thing that will help me do more and work faster is good. I hope people like Dave Steven's and others keep doing what they do because it advances the hobby!

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I started this topic to cover a wide range of subject material, from scratch building vs kit building, research, building materials, plans and methods of construction.

To start things off I will begin with the following statement from another topic from another forum. (MSB)

Like on any forum though, the information tends to get lost deep down in the site.

As an individual it’s impossible for anyone to take and organize that information into any real useful format for the members. There's just not enough hours in the day . As good and informative as build logs can be even they are limited in their potential because just like forums if you don't know the information you are looking for is in them, how do you find it?
Now, if a group of dedicated modelers could put their heads together and take on a project where all this information can be sorted and cataloged that it would certainly be well worth the effort.

This is true if your looking for specific information odds of finding it is like looking for that needle in a hay stack. If your a beginner and you do not know the proper terms then finding what you need is even harder. Forums are full of all kinds of tips and hints, research information etc. the problem is this information is fragmented and scattered in the most unlikely topics. To make things ever worse information is also scattered throughout different forums. Some forms do not allow taking posts, images or information and using that information on a different forum. Now a builder not only has to search a forum but now they have to search for different forums. It would be a big benefit to this hobby if there were one database where all forums and sites contribute to. That is easier said than done because different forums have different rules, formats and cover different subjects. The bigger a forum gets the less effective it becomes unless there is a staff of editors constantly sorting and updating information.
this site is in itself a research tool and resource. When new members join they are asked to start a build log. The build logs become the library of research material. you don't have to be a pro to do a log because all levels are needed.
Volunteering material is what we are all doing, just look at the amount of information which is being posted on SOS MSB and NBM.
we are a community of hobbyist and we need to build our own data base aside from the academic community of how to and where to look for information and share that information.

A carefully chosen word search seems to be the best way at present to dig deep into the bottom of the message base and locate those trinkets of information you are searching for. It takes time, but you usually find what you're looking for if it's there.

 

[gene438]

Let me give you a different perspective. I own both a CNC and a laser cutter. I use these tools to fabricate objects I could not easily do by hand or to perform repetitive tasks when I need multiple of the same object. These tools are both a time saver and enablers (like all tools). These tools only do what the operator tells them to do. So first, I have to draw the object in CAD and refine it until I have a complete 3D design. Depending on the object, this is no small task and takes a lot of practice and skill on it's own. Once the design is finalized then the CNC or laser can be used to produce the part. But the original idea and design still comes from the modeler. It's just another method to building a model... no better or no worse than any other method. Someone once told me that I really wasn't painting a model because I was using an airbrush. Tools of the trade ... it is what it is.

I don't agree that scratch building is a higher form of modeling than kit building. In-fact, every one of my kit builds includes some form of scratch fabrication or material replacement. Take a look at some of Dave Blake's models where he uses his "paint with wood" technique of material replacement.. it's a kit but looks as good or better than any scratch built model.

I believe in appreciating all models regardless of build method or skill level. It's a hobby.. meant for fun. Although I have been building for 50 years I have never once entered a model contest for the simple reason that I believe each modeler should be the ONLY judge of their own work. In other words,,, if it looks good enough for me, then it's good enough. Don't need a ribbon.

Sorry for rambling... By the way Bob, your models are AMAZING!!

Could not have said it better........

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

back when i started the goal of any ship model builder was to build a historic model from scratch and a kit was consider just the starting point.
Back then kits were poor quality, poorly researched, out of scale fittings and considered by the old school builders nothing but a cheap alternative to the finer art, the paint by number version.
Kits have come a long way since those days and are now pretty high quality. From what i can see on the 2 major forums scratch building is a very small % in the hobby. Has scratch building become a lost art?

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

back when i started the goal of any ship model builder was to build a historic model from scratch and a kit was consider just the starting point.
Back then kits were poor quality, poorly researched, out of scale fittings and considered by the old school builders nothing but a cheap alternative to the finer art, the paint by number version.
Kits have come a long way since those days and are now pretty high quality. From what i can see on the 2 major forums scratch building is a very small % in the hobby. Has scratch building become a lost art?

No, just very scarce, made moreso by the scarcity of people inspired and skilled enough to make anything with their own hands.

 

[richie incident]

Shaping the hull with a CNC machine doesn't mean anything to me - I don't even know what a CNC machine is (I will look it up after completing this post). But it does sound like the machine and computere are doing the work rather than the ship modeller. I write lots of practicums, but even the free ones are seldom taken up. Really, with kits, someone else has done all the design work and present the whole thing is in a box ready for cutting out and assembling. I would say that "state of the art" applies only to the designers methods, and not the person who purchases the kit, and that simply does not appeal to me! If it is just a hobby to enjoy, without having to go to the trouble of geting the plans and assembling all the materials, and then figuring out how to put it all together, stick with kits. But if you want to advance as a model shipbuilder, I believe the kit should be left behind in order to progress to better things. The most common statement I hear is "I could never do that!"
Bob

It seems that I am also from your company. I think the originality of ship modeling lies exclusively in manual labor and little-known projects.
And for the serialization of parts in the model I use plastic casting.
Machines PC are soulless and artificial.

PS However, for making models of the era of steam and armored ships, 3D is better suited

 

[Jimsky]

back when i started the goal of any ship model builder was to build a historic model from scratch and a kit was consider just the starting point.
Back then kits were poor quality, poorly researched, out of scale fittings and considered by the old school builders nothing but a cheap alternative to the finer art, the paint by number version.
Kits have come a long way since those days and are now pretty high quality. From what i can see on the 2 major forums scratch building is a very small % in the hobby. Has scratch building become a lost art?

No way, the scratch-building process become a lost art! Thread after thread we are returning to the same topic...
Today's technology allows a scratch-builder to use all the tools at his/her disposal. First, we have to define the scratch-building. For example cutting the bulkheads using a fretsaw, jigsaw, or CNC router will be considered a scratch build or CNC is not because it didn't exist some years back. If I order the CNC from someone who owns the CNC machine would still considered a scratch build? Or, let's say I own a CNC machine but sourced the CAD work from someone. Will this still be considered a scratch build? Do I have to trace the bulkheads using carbon paper and cut them using a fretsaw would it be considered a scratch build? This is only CNC related but what about the 3D printing, or my most popular - scale lumber? Would ordering precut strips of timber still be considered scratch-build? Do I have to grow a tree, and cut it with the saw (manual) to process the required strips with a hand plane for my scale model considered a scratch build?

I am sure the rules for a scratch-build have been changed since modern technology evolved. But there are still many scale modelers who love building from plans, even some of them, make their plans based on research, and photographs. Yes, they may use CNC to cut out parts, but it is still scratch-build, IMHO.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

No way, the scratch-building process become a lost art! Thread after thread we are returning to the same topic...
Today's technology allows a scratch-builder to use all the tools at his/her disposal. First, we have to define the scratch-building. For example cutting the bulkheads using a fretsaw, jigsaw, or CNC router will be considered a scratch build or CNC is not because it didn't exist some years back. If I order the CNC from someone who owns the CNC machine would still considered a scratch build? Or, let's say I own a CNC machine but sourced the CAD work from someone. Will this still be considered a scratch build? Do I have to trace the bulkheads using carbon paper and cut them using a fretsaw would it be considered a scratch build? This is only CNC related but what about the 3D printing, or my most popular - scale lumber? Would ordering precut strips of timber still be considered scratch-build? Do I have to grow a tree, and cut it with the saw (manual) to process the required strips with a hand plane for my scale model considered a scratch build?

I am sure the rules for a scratch-build have been changed since modern technology evolved. But there are still many scale modelers who love building from plans, even some of them, make their plans based on research, and photographs. Yes, they may use CNC to cut out parts, but it is still scratch-build, IMHO.

Agreed. I don't believe we have to chop the tallest tree down with a herring, chew the logs into small planks with our teeth, and weave our armpit hairs into scale ropes in order to call a model build "scratch built".

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

my point was not what is scratch building, what i was trying to get at is, has this hobby become a ship in a box with everything mass produced and all the pieces and parts put in a box. There is such a thing as a scratch built kit an example of this is the Swan Class projects where you buy the plans, select the wood you want to use, cut all your own wood or source out the wood and buy either pre milled or bulk. Search for things like fittings, rigging blocks etc. or make your own.
i consider myself a scratch builder and never search through available "kits" i pick a subject of interest start by planning out the build, make a material list, and use whatever resources i can ie. laser cutters, 3d printers, computer aided drafting. some of the work is sent out like the actual laser cutting. sometimes i hire a 3d artist. but the project started with me, i am the master shipwright on the build.

This has become the lost art of model ship building.

Kurt
No, just very scarce, made moreso by the scarcity of people inspired and skilled enough to make anything with their own hands.

i agree the lack of inspiration, it is easier to pick a box off the shelf as opposed to coming up with an original idea. but as for the lack of skill i do not agree it takes as much skill to build a kit as it does to start from scratch. To scratch build there is the prepping that is milling all your own wood but there are services available and sources of pre milled wood. What came in the mail is a stack of sheet wood and dimensioned scale lumber it is up to you to turn that into a ship model.

so! scratch building as was done by the past generation of guys like Harold Hahn and Robert Bruckshaw is a dying art form. and those who pursue the art of model ship building are few and far between.

what are we passing along to the next generation a bunch of hobby crafted mass produced ships from a box or the art of scale model ship building?
But then again who really cares?

Glen Grieco

The College of Arts & Sciences at Texas A&M University – Academic subjects such as literature, philosophy, mathematics, and social and physical sciences as distinct from professional and scientific subjects at Texas A&M University

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david Warther

David Warther Carvings Homepage - David Warther Carvings

David Warther Carvings Museum - We are preserving, promoting and exhibiting the artwork of nationally known maritime artist David Warther who has carved ships and vessels from Ivory and wood depicting the history of ships.

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