Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

[Jimsky]

Jim your doing the exact same thing you accuse Bob of doing just from another point of view

You're free to hold your view - just stop preaching it like it's gospel.

Dave, with all respect, there's a key difference here that shouldn’t be glossed over. Bob isn’t just expressing a personal preference; he’s repeatedly dismissing an entire segment of the hobby and its participants as illegitimate. That’s not "another point of view" - that’s gatekeeping.

Calling that out isn’t preaching, it’s pushing back against a narrative that alienates beginners and belittles anyone who doesn’t scratch-build every plank by hand. If we're truly here to support and grow the community, then everyone should feel welcome, not just those who meet someone else's definition of “real” ship modeling.

 

[Jimsky]

kit building is not building a scale model of a ship.

What? Dave, that’s just plain wrong — and frankly, it’s the kind of elitist nonsense that drives people away from the hobby. A well-built kit is every bit a scale model of a ship. The scale, proportions, and historical references don’t magically stop existing just because the parts came in a box.

But what truly leaves me at a loss is hearing this from you — someone who literally sells kits, semi-kits. It’s baffling to see you undermine the very thing you offer to fellow hobbyists. If kits aren’t “real” scale models, what exactly are you selling? This isn’t just contradictory — it’s discouraging to anyone who’s ever tried to enter the hobby through the very door you claim to support.

 

[Jimsky]

And you won't find examples of my work for a number of reasons. 1.) I have nothing to offer anyone in terms of build logs or pictures of finished models that hasn't been offered many times over before by far better modelers than myself. 2.) For the last several years, my modeling has been limited to restoration and repair work, together with research for future builds because I have had to care for my invalid wife and because my restoration and repair work is the private business of the owners of those models which I am not at liberty to publish on the internet. 3.) I don't feel the need to enhance my credibility by showing off what a great modeler I am, an unsustainable assertion in any event. I post what I believe to be accurate and hope to be helpful to those who might avail themselves of it and I expect my comments to be evaluated by the reader solely upon the merit of their content. So, if you are wondering whether I know what I am talking about, you'll have to rely upon what I've said to draw your conclusions and if you find that insufficient, I suppose that leaves you in a place you've been plenty of times before.

Those who can't do, teach.

 

[Bob Cleek]

I do think you mean well but in an arrogant way.

At the risk of really severe thread drift, I think you may have a good point here, Dan. A recent government study revealed that something like 54% of voting age Americans have reading comprehension abilities below the sixth-grade level. Reading is becoming a lost art, just as we've seen the demise of cursive handwriting in the nation's grammar schools. Audio and video have become the primary information mediums for many in the digital age. I fear I have assumed too much in unconsciously expecting this audience to have had the benefit of a classical liberal arts education which confers an appreciation of the "rules of rhetorical engagement," notably the avoidance of logical fallacies. (See: https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_...logic_in_argumentative_writing/fallacies.html) I've spent nearly a half century writing adversarial advocacy. I've written many hundreds of thousands of pages of argument in trial and appellate court briefs over the years. In that writing style, it isn't productive to equivocate or apologize for one's argument. It is expected that what one proposes will be vigorously asserted and plausibly maintained. It is taken as a given that opposing views will be similarly vigorously asserted and plausibly maintained. It is expected that rhetorical fallacies are to be avoided at all costs and the focus of discussions remain on the issues rather than on personalities or emotions. As those who have been taught logic and rhetoric, there is a science to arguing. None of it is "personal."

This "kits versus scratch" thing keeps coming up as a continual source of tension among model ship builders. Just last night, I was reading a sixteen-year-old back issue of the Nautical Research Journal with a feature article about the advantages of scratch building over kit building! I was surprised to see the same arguments in favor of scratch building in that article that I've seen made time and again up to the present day. I think it's a matter of opinion, really, since the two activities overlap a great deal, but are really quite different in many ways as well and the differing motivations for favoring either are distinct as well as individually valid. That said, what I find very remarkable is the highly charged reactions that some of the "kit building faction" exhibit whenever the subject rears its ugly head. This group is rather interesting, in that there seems to be a core of "leaders" who are experienced kit builders and often quite active forum participants with a chorus of beginning kit modelers in support and that they will often pick a fight even where no fight existed at all.

Some of the opposition by the "kit faction," is easily explained by self-interest. Some of these individuals are kit and aftermarket modeling product manufacturers, or shills for them, and their opposition is economically motivated. They are just protecting their "rice bowls." There seems to be another subset of "anti-scratchers," though, whose motives at first mystified me. After some observation and analysis, one explanation became clearer. These people are reacting with fear. They can't discuss the issue in any context without getting inordinately emotionally involved and, regrettably, often devolving quickly to ad hominem attacks and incoherent arguments, many of which are based upon some sort of New Age twisted egalitarianism that posits that not only does everybody have a right to their own opinion, but they also have a right to their own facts. This is how people who feel inadequate, whether justified or not, react when their adequacies are challenged, actually, or in their own imagination. Such challenges very realistically, in their minds, at least, threaten their self-identities. When one defines themself as a "ship modeler" because they build ship model kits, and somebody likens building ship model kits to coloring "paint-by-number kits" or "frozen TV dinners," or even intimating that scratch building might be an even slightly higher level of ship modeling, they can't help but feel as if somebody just accused them of being something less than they have identified themselves as being. They can't discuss the subject without feeling threatened. This is where their otherwise odd assertions of "discouraging others" and "gatekeeping" come from. I suppose, when dealing with this level of craziness, the reaction scratch building proponents get is to be expected and, significantly, it cannot be expected that they will be mollified by any amount of reassurance, qualification, or disclaiming. The bottom line is that as long as there is such a thing as scratch building model ships, its very existence is, in any comparison with kit building, going to necessarily manifest the inherent inferiorities of the latter.

I found it interesting that at one point some objected to what they perceived as a more "academic" approach to ship modeling with comments such as, "It's not the naval academy." and the like. My assertion that being able read lines drawings and know basic nomenclature were essential skills for serious ship modelers drew howls far beyond any reasonable expectation and, oddly, I thought, were characterized as "arrogant." In retrospect, I realize I didn't consider that there may be those who are highly invested in seeing themselves as "ship modelers" and lack the confidence to engage in intellectual pursuits I was promoting. For such folks, I guess saying, "If you want to be a ship modeler, you need to learn how to do these things." can easily be equated to being told they aren't smart enough to be ship modelers. That's very unfortunate and, of course not true, but it's an internal issue they are going to have to resolve themselves. Forward momentum is lost when we let the slowest soldier call the cadence.

Regrettably, when driven by an imagined existential threat posed by anyone who might be "better" than they are, people become the sworn enemies of the "better," and advocates for the "good enough" and the "all the same." In their charge to defend against any qualitative comparison in which they fear coming up short, they seek to destroy the "risk" of any qualitative comparisons at all. When the measure of quality becomes impossible, we've lost our bearings entirely. This entire discussion is, in many ways, a microcosm of our larger society. We've become so afraid of stepping on toes that we've paralyzed ourselves. In our effort not to hurt others' feelings, which is a good thing, although often necessary, we've lost sight entirely of the fact that organisms which fail to react to change go extinct.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Personally, I am sick to the back teeth of this underlying conflict between kit and scratch snobbery

In response to the ORIGINAL topic, the biggest cost to kit vs scratch is time, on that note I have wasted far to much time reading and replying to this drivel

But it's like a plane crash video, isn't it? No matter how sick it makes you feel, you just can't stop playing it over and over again.

 

[warren47]

I'm not affraid to speak up Bob. Put a sock in it. You have probably alienated 50% of the viewers. FWIW, I have a degree in Electronic Engineering. To graduate I needed to be fluent in mechanical, chemical, and aero engineering. As already pointed out, my room mate was an extremely successful navel engineer. He and I used to fly gliders together (Schweizer 22s) as well as race dingys in San Francisco Bay.
I am trained in electronic, mechanical and piping (Diablo Canyon QA rep) drawings. I am fluent in autocad, spice and various system desing and project management software tools. I can read ship design drawings and I used to love arguing with drunks (personality disorder).
I'm signing out at this point.
warren

 

[Bob Cleek]

For the umpteenth time, you say it’s not about scratch vs. kit, yet every time someone brings up a different point, you hijack the conversation and steer it right back there. You keep claiming it’s about “encouraging growth”, but it always ends with a smug nudge that if someone isn’t reading plans or lofting, they’re somehow not doing it right. That’s not encouragement - that’s condescension with a coat of varnish.

Nobody here has an issue with people sharing knowledge; the issue is with your constant undercurrent that kits are somehow second-rate, and that anyone defending them must be “projecting.” That’s rich. If anyone’s projecting here, it’s the one who keeps needing to justify his own sense of superiority by rehashing the same tired division over and over, again and again, from post to post in most threads.

So no, dear friend, it’s not about being “offended” or “discouraged.” It’s about being fed up with the subtle digs, the smug comparisons, and the endless turning of every thread into your personal soapbox about scratch building purity. Enough already.

You might want to spend some time meditating about why this one issue drives you as nuts as it does. Hey, I'm sure lots of people have read my posts in this thread and thought, "What a jerk!" or worse, even, and then just "scrolled onward" without skipping a beat. For some reason, it sends your blood pressure through the roof. That's not healthy.

 

[Bob Cleek]

What Bob is trying to say is you cannot build a scale model of a ship if you do not know how the real ship was built. To understand how to build a ship you have to know and understand the terms and methods. Kit building is not building a scale model of a ship. ...

... To be called some elitest or demi-god who thinks they are better than all the rest in an insult. This very topic is an insult to the art of model ship building.

You have to serve an apprenticeship in any field to fully understand what it means to be a student under a master. to be told it is not good enough, to be told this is how it is done, these are the rules and methods. To see and watch a master at work lights that burning desire to move forward. i feel sorry for those to stop and accept "good enough" when you reached journeyman then you take that training and apply it to your personal creativity.

This topic is like arguing is the sky blue or is it a shade of blue

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say better than I said it in the first place.

Add that I don't really care whether kit building is building a scale model of a ship or not, so much as I care that kit building is simply kit building and, while many will build very attractive models from kits, they will always be "models of someone else's model," rather than their own scale model of a ship. That's a fact and people will just have to deal with it, or not, as they see fit. It makes no matter to me whether that fact makes scratch building "better than" or "superior to" kit building. If it disturbs kit builders who think that fact suggests kit building is inferior to scratch building, that's an issue they are going to have to resolve themselves without my involvement.

If it helps anybody to understand the distinction, it's no different than hearing the same song played by the original band that wrote it or hearing it played by a cover band. Capice?

 

[Bob Cleek]

Given the fir still in the air, I'm a bit afraid to comment. Despite my age, I'm still foolish soo. "To build a "scale model ship." is the issue here. I set out to build an historically accurate model of Bellona. With all of the missing information, all I can do at this time is to do the best I can. Why does the builder of a kit have to be judged by the concept of building a scale model. To me the word "scale" has two meanings. 1. Smaller or larger than an original. 2. Accurate.
The last Revel kit for Bubba's whatever says scale kit. It is smaller, is it accurate?
Its a kit. It is a compromise. It is a hobby. My therapist just told me to shut up
warren

Can you send me your therapist's number? He seems to know what he's talking about.

 

[Steef66]

Just a question to our writedown comedian Bob.
Why are you here on this forum? I'm curious.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Those who can't do, teach.

And updated for the digital age:

And those who can't do either, moderate.

 

[Bob Cleek]

I'm not affraid to speak up Bob. Put a sock in it. You have probably alienated 50% of the viewers. FWIW, I have a degree in Electronic Engineering. To graduate I needed to be fluent in mechanical, chemical, and aero engineering. As already pointed out, my room mate was an extremely successful navel engineer. He and I used to fly gliders together (Schweizer 22s) as well as race dingys in San Francisco Bay.
I am trained in electronic, mechanical and piping (Diablo Canyon QA rep) drawings. I am fluent in autocad, spice and various system desing and project management software tools. I can read ship design drawings and I used to love arguing with drunks (personality disorder).
I'm signing out at this point.
warren

Best post of the day, Warren! You win the internet "Best of Today" award. I've got to find something to interrupt this conversation.

Thanks for the advice. These days, it seems impossible to do anything without alienating "the other 50%." Fortunately, I'm not running for election and so should not be confused with anybody who gives a damn.

It all started with, "A drunk and a guy with OCD walk into a bar... "

 

[Jimsky]

You might want to spend some time meditating about why this one issue drives you as nuts as it does. Hey, I'm sure lots of people have read my posts in this thread and thought, "What a jerk!" or worse, even, and then just "scrolled onward" without skipping a beat. For some reason, it sends your blood pressure through the roof. That's not healthy.

You know what’s actually unhealthy? Repeatedly needling a discussion just to stir reactions and then acting like the calm voice of wisdom. I respond strongly because I care about this space, the hobby, respect for different approaches, and about not letting one narrow view dominate the conversation.

And just to clarify, I didn’t call you a jerk. You said people might think that, and on that point alone, I happen to agree with you and them. Funny how common ground appears in unexpected places.

 

[Jimsky]

And updated for the digital age:

And those who can't do either, moderate.

not an update, just saying

Critics are those who have failed in literature and art...

 

[Bob Cleek]

So no, dear friend, it’s not about being “offended” or “discouraged.” It’s about being fed up with the subtle digs, the smug comparisons, and the endless turning of every thread into your personal soapbox about scratch building purity. Enough already.

Please do ignore my posts in the future.

 

[Bob Cleek]

And just to clarify, I didn’t call you a jerk.

Never said you did, Good Friend. At this point I'd expect you'd be employing a more colorful vocabulary.

 

[Jimsky]

Please do ignore my posts in the future.

Gladly, I’ll ignore you the moment you stop flooding the thread with the same condescending nonsense dressed up as “wisdom.” Until then, I’m not in the habit of letting repeated BS go unchecked. Sorry, my friend.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Critics are those who have failed in literature and art...

So it's been said, and yet, people still pay to hear what they have to say.

 

[Jimsky]

Please do ignore my posts in the future.

Do yourself a favor and go read the title of the thread. What does any of your long-winded elitist rambling have to do with the actual topic: The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?
You keep dragging the conversation into your personal crusade about who qualifies as a “real” modeler. Enough already. Stay on topic or start your own thread.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Just a question to our writedown comedian Bob.
Why are you here on this forum? I'm curious.

Really, really good question! I was just asking myself the same. It's just a slow day, I guess. Certainly, my time could be better spent.
Thanks for inspiring me to cut this time sink loose and go find something more entertaining and productive to do.

At least the thread made it to #200. that counts for something, I suppose.