I found this online and cannot wait any longer to share it with you, folks!
Vasa 1628 – engineering a ship
- Thread starter -Waldemar-
- Start date
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Yes, this video series is spectacular. Mr. Hocker’s knowledge of the ship is expansive and very digestibly presented.
Thank You Jimsky! 
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It has now become clear who Fred was privately corresponding with tonight and about what
. It is very telling that you have chosen to put a series of these videos just in my thread and not in any other. I find this idea a very good one, as these truly spectacular films will deservedly become even more popular, as will the magical ship Vasa 1628 itself. However, precisely because of this spectacular form, it makes it virtually impossible to continue discussion in normal written form..
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I am glad that people enjoy these videos, they were great fun to make!
Fred
Fred
We modelers all owe you a huge debt of gratitude, Fred. First hand knowledge of the details of any ship of that period is rare to nonexistent.
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While we're on the subject of formal and technical issues, such as the insertion and display of graphics or video in forum threads, may I ask the administrators why the internet search engine is not finding graphics from my thread "The Dutch 72-gun ship ca. 1690 – the apogee of Dutch ship design of the Classical Age"? The other threads, at least so far, seem to be behaving normally.
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Hi Waldemar,
Here is the link to the search results
..and direct link to your thread
The Dutch 72-gun ship ca. 1690 – the apogee of Dutch ship design of the Classical Age
. It should be clarified at once that this plan, tentatively dated by me to the end of the 17th century, is one of the last of the era before the widespread adoption of design diagonals, which in the Netherlands occurred in the third decade of the 18th century at the latest (see as to this Ab...
shipsofscale.com
On the other hand, we cannot control Internet search engines, but Google search engine founds right away
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Thank you very much, Jimsky, however I meant a search for graphics, as opposed to a search in general. For comparison, I've included below today's screenshots of the search results for all my threads posted on the SoS forum.
In each case I typed in the exact title of the thread, and in each case the internet search engine was able to find some graphics related to these threads as well. In each case, except for just one instance, i.e. the thread The Dutch 72-gun ship ca. 1690 – the apogee of Dutch ship design of the Classical Age. Here the search engine has not been able to find a single graphic, and for a quite long time.
What is going on? Is there any reasonable explanation for this?
1. The Dutch 72-gun ship ca. 1690 – the apogee of Dutch ship design of the Classical Age
2. Samuel 1650 – a Dutch mid-17th century trader
3. Naseby 1655 - reverse engineering the ship model
4. The Dutch capital ship ca. 1665 – engineering of war
5. English ship design ca. 1600 – Mediterranean legacy
6. Pinas 1671 by Nicolaes Witsen – the backbone of the fleets
7. Danish defensionsskib 1630 – Dutch invention / English draught / Dutch implementation (bottom-first)
8. The fluyt by Åke Rålamb 1691 – Dutch bottom-first graphically
9. The boyer by Åke Rålamb 1691 – shaping Dutch hulls using graphic methods
10. French heavy frigate of 1686 - designing a ship in the Dutch(?) manner by graphic means
11. Venetian 1st rate ship San Carlo Borromeo 1739 – design concept
12. English 6th rate ship – reverse engineering the draught from the late 17th century
13. William Keltridge's 6th rate ship – reverse engineering the plans of 1684
14. Vasa 1628 – engineering a ship
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No explanation, I guess, as I said earlier, we can not control browsers' search engines and their algorithms.
WOW WALDEMAR AGAIN WOW I MISSED MANY GOING BACK SO I CAN DOWNLOAD AND LEARN MORE, PLEASE CONTINUE WIT THIS YOUR WORK IS AMAZING I REALLY FELL IN LOVE WITH THE SAMUAEL I WISH THERE WAS A KIT OR SEMI KIT OF THE SMALLER DUTCH SHIPS I WOULD TACKEL A SCRATCH BUILD. BUT DUE TO AGE PHYSICAL PROBLEMS CAN NOT DO IT TO BAD I WILL BE 86 END OF MONTH BUT THROUGH JESUES I AM STILL GOING AND BUILDING. IF YOU DO NOT MIND I WILL REPEAT MY SUGESTION TO YOU. HIT ME BACK. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE YOU AND YOURS DON
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Ab, I see you are still looking here too. Various circumstances make your proposal for a joint article at a specialist publisher more and more attractive, and perhaps even necessary. Although I still find it difficult to imagine combining fire and water, i.e. simultaneously following and not following historian Olof Hasslöf's proposal from a few decades ago that Dutch ships were not built conceptually at all, or rather that they were only designed during the construction itself. I have simply seen and discovered too much already (only part of it presented) to become a follower of the disastrous religion created by Hasslöf again. How to reconcile these two mutually exclusive approaches?
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Don't push so hard with your comments. I'm just leaving for a trip to Italy for a few days, so I won't be able to respond in any extensive way anyway.
In the meantime, Fred's spectacular video series can be viewed. If you find anything there about ship design from a conceptual perspective, please feel free to point me to a specific episode.
Bye for now!
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Since the forum is public and anyone can post practically anything they fancy in this thread, I will also take advantage of this opportunity by posting here one photograph of mine just taken in Rome (sorry, no Vasa 1628 in the background).
Anyway, now I have to think about the next steps...
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Wow! Beautiful!
I've always thought that it must be nice to live in a place with history. Where I live the background it always trees, mountains and water.
MY FAVORATE COUNTRY, SPENT 3 WEEKS THERE FROM NORTH TO SOUTH OF ROME A LIVING MUSEUM, JUST INCREDIBLE COUNTRY IT WAS A LONG TIME LIKE 30 YEARS. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
Hello everyone, greetings dr.Hocker. I am a student of Naval Architecture & Marine engineering from Italy. I am conducting studies on the stability of the Vasa, and yet I would need fairly accurate drawings of her hull geometry. I have actually found hull lines, but there are apparently inconsistencies with the data found on the Vasamuseet website (example: maximum breadth of 11.1m vs 11.7m, or 11.3m; I also found some difficulty with the “diagonals” that would allow me to get a clearer idea of the submerged hull of the ship.). Do you happen to know where other plans can be found, if any? On the web I am finding difficulties. If you have any advice I would be very grateful.
Renato Ceccarelli
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Hi Renato, I'm not sure it actually makes sense to carry out stability calculations for Vasa 1628 as it was actually built. But that is, of course, your choice. The thing is that this ship was ultimately built to proportions that are grossly inconsistent with the practices of the time, as known from contracts, specifications and recommendations of the era, so the results will not be authoritative at all in the sense that they cannot serve as a useful reference to other designs of the period. And the fact that Vasa 1628 was not (laterally) stable is known, after all, even without the relevant calculations.
If I may make a suggestion, I propose to make such calculations for other ships built in the North Continental/Dutch tradition from a slightly later period (because original plans from this somewhat later period have survived). Moreover, for already matured, dedicated warships, as opposed to merchant or rather in a sense experimental vessels like the Vasa 1628. It would be particularly interesting to see the results of such calculations for a frigate by Pierre Chaillé from 1686 or a 72-gun ‘frigate-ship’ from around 1700 (links below).
There is a specific reason to verify the lateral rigidity of truly dedicated warships built à la hollandaise. Well, in many period paintings by considered to be the most meticulous artist-painters such as van de Veldes, these warships are often so deeply immersed in the water that the gun ports appear to be above the surface no more than about the height of the gun ports, i.e. only, say, in the range of about 2.5–3 feet, sometimes perhaps even less. Was this because the Dutch-designed warships of this period were particularly laterally rigid, despite the fact that the hull forms of these already dedicated warships were actually quite sharp and do not seem to have any particularly large reserve of underwater volume to reinforce lateral rigidity, as is the case with merchant ships? Or perhaps is it more the effect of artistic license?
Besides, although a 3D scan of the Vasa 1628 has been admittedly made, it is highly unlikely that you will get anything of the sort, as there is a strong general tendency or custom among the professional researchers and archaeologists involved to keep the collected data or preserved artefacts for their exclusive use, at least so long until a relevant publication is made to their credit. For example, research-worthy contemporary ship models, critical graphic documentation produced during the excavations or 3D scans may be kept in semi-private offices or computers for many years under the pretext of being studied, with accompanying declarations of intent to publish their results in the more or less distant future, but the net outcome is that direct access to these data is usually denied or at least very difficult to anyone else. I have personally come across a number of such cases.
Back to the point. On the left you can see one of the many examples of the very short distance of the gun ports from the water (Gouden Leeuw by Willem van de Velde), and on the right the inclination of the ship, which would clearly put such extremely low gun ports under water (Hollandia by Ludolf Bakhuizen). Don't you want to investigate this very phenomenon?
Hi Renato, I'm not sure it actually makes sense to carry out stability calculations for Vasa 1628 as it was actually built. But that is, of course, your choice. The thing is that this ship was ultimately built to proportions that are grossly inconsistent with the practices of the time, as known from contracts, specifications and recommendations of the era, so the results will not be authoritative at all in the sense that they cannot serve as a useful reference to other designs of the period. And the fact that Vasa 1628 was not (laterally) stable is known, after all, even without the relevant calculations.
If I may make a suggestion, I propose to make such calculations for other ships built in the North Continental/Dutch tradition from a slightly later period (because original plans from this somewhat later period have survived). Moreover, for already matured, dedicated warships, as opposed to merchant or rather in a sense experimental vessels like the Vasa 1628. It would be particularly interesting to see the results of such calculations for a frigate by Pierre Chaillé from 1686 or a 72-gun ‘frigate-ship’ from around 1700 (links below).
French heavy frigate of 1686 – designing a ship in the Dutch manner
. This plan of a heavy frigate, drawn up by the French shipwright P. Chaillé in 1686, is a real gem. First of all, until now it was virtually unknown what conceptual methods were used on the Atlantic coast of France (Ponant) until the very last years of the 17th century, that is, until the...
shipsofscale.com
The Dutch 72-gun ship ca. 1690 – the apogee of Dutch ship design of the Classical Age
. It should be clarified at once that this plan, tentatively dated by me to the end of the 17th century, is one of the last of the era before the widespread adoption of design diagonals, which in the Netherlands occurred in the third decade of the 18th century at the latest (see as to this Ab...
shipsofscale.com
There is a specific reason to verify the lateral rigidity of truly dedicated warships built à la hollandaise. Well, in many period paintings by considered to be the most meticulous artist-painters such as van de Veldes, these warships are often so deeply immersed in the water that the gun ports appear to be above the surface no more than about the height of the gun ports, i.e. only, say, in the range of about 2.5–3 feet, sometimes perhaps even less. Was this because the Dutch-designed warships of this period were particularly laterally rigid, despite the fact that the hull forms of these already dedicated warships were actually quite sharp and do not seem to have any particularly large reserve of underwater volume to reinforce lateral rigidity, as is the case with merchant ships? Or perhaps is it more the effect of artistic license?
Besides, although a 3D scan of the Vasa 1628 has been admittedly made, it is highly unlikely that you will get anything of the sort, as there is a strong general tendency or custom among the professional researchers and archaeologists involved to keep the collected data or preserved artefacts for their exclusive use, at least so long until a relevant publication is made to their credit. For example, research-worthy contemporary ship models, critical graphic documentation produced during the excavations or 3D scans may be kept in semi-private offices or computers for many years under the pretext of being studied, with accompanying declarations of intent to publish their results in the more or less distant future, but the net outcome is that direct access to these data is usually denied or at least very difficult to anyone else. I have personally come across a number of such cases.
Back to the point. On the left you can see one of the many examples of the very short distance of the gun ports from the water (Gouden Leeuw by Willem van de Velde), and on the right the inclination of the ship, which would clearly put such extremely low gun ports under water (Hollandia by Ludolf Bakhuizen). Don't you want to investigate this very phenomenon?
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It is in this very context that it is also worth mentioning a potentially very promising model of the Swedish ship Amarant (or Spees) from the mid-17th century, built by a shipwright of Dutch origin. This model, with its extremely sharp lines leaving little volume of the underwater part of the hull, simply begs for a design analysis (3D scan needed!) and also an associated stability analysis.
As it happens, on the whole, Sweden seems to be definitely leading the way when it comes to broadly understood ‘recording’ and data sharing of historical artefacts of this kind, for example by making 3D scans of historical shipwrecks or period models and then making them available to the public on a regular basis, so one can reasonably hope that a 3D scan of this particular model will also be created and made available soon.
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