what is right

As a business, there are 3 things you can do:
1. Assign the risk to the buyer. If the buyer does not want that risk, he or she must pay you to take the risk. What percentage of shipments go missing and what is the average value? If 5% go missing and the average value is $200, then you charge a $10 fee to every shipment. Every 20 shipments you will have accrued enough to pay for a lost shipment. If they buyer doesn't want the risk and won't pay you to take it, decline the order.
2. Mitigate the risk of loss. About all you can do is get the buyer to verify the address, and package it as though the parcel will be stuffed in a full canvas bag and thrown 40 feet. I worked at the Post Office. When loading trucks, things were thrown 40 feet. Sometimes they got exposed to rain or snow.
3. Transfer the risk by insuring it. If USPS say their responsibility ends at the border, use an international shipping / courier firm like UPS or FedEx who maintain shipment status from door to door. It costs more but you get more.

I ship goods all the time with Canada Post, USPS and the UK Post Office. I can't think of a shipment that literally disappeared. Some got delayed for months but none vanished. How often is this occurring?

From a business standpoint, that is the way to look at it in the end: multiply the frequency of loss tines the average shipment value. Then either realize that someone is going to gave to eat that periodically or you realize that in the big scope of things it is a small cost of doing business. Companies look at warranty repairs the same way. In one startup firm I worked at that made multi million dollar custom engineered industrial equipment, we added a 2% "tax" to each contract to build up a warranty war chest so a big claim wouldn't threaten our operations. Customers were unaware, it was just part of our pricing.
 
I'm afraid I have to also say that the seller must be responsible. I've had similar problems, although not that large.

My first thought is that your customer has paid $510 and received nothing. So he is out the full $510. Your company has received $510 paid $110 for shipping and has "spent" the price of raw materials and labor. The remainder to you is profit. Considering only raw materials and labor (not operating costs, as you would be paying those whether you got the order or not), you have a profit for the order. Possibly approaching $200 (half the order amount, and again I am including production expenses for only this order). In total, the customer lost $510 and you have gained (possibly) as much as $200. For the customer to bear the entire financial responsibility is not very fair. Using these figures, for you to replace the order would only cost you your profit. The expensive shipping is something else, but again, in this admittedly fictional example, it would be better IMHO for you to lose $110 than for your customer to lose $510.

That aside, if the CUSTOMER specifies a shipping method which is known to have no tracking available over the entire journey, then he/she should be notified that they are responsible. If the SELLER specifies that same shipping, then that is a problem in the making. I think you need to find a shipping method that provides such tracking, or insurance that can cover it if it is not received. Of course, that will probably be more expensive. It is a quandary.
 
Signet said:
I'm afraid I have to also say that the seller must be responsible. I've had similar problems, although not that large.

My first thought is that your customer has paid $510 and received nothing. So he is out the full $510. Your company has received $510 paid $110 for shipping and has "spent" the price of raw materials and labor. The remainder to you is profit. Considering only raw materials and labor (not operating costs, as you would be paying those whether you got the order or not), you have a profit for the order. Possibly approaching $200 (half the order amount, and again I am including production expenses for only this order). In total, the customer lost $510 and you have gained (possibly) as much as $200. For the customer to bear the entire financial responsibility is not very fair. Using these figures, for you to replace the order would only cost you your profit. The expensive shipping is something else, but again, in this admittedly fictional example, it would be better IMHO for you to lose $110 than for your customer to lose $510.

That aside, if the CUSTOMER specifies a shipping method which is known to have no tracking available over the entire journey, then he/she should be notified that they are responsible. If the SELLER specifies that same shipping, then that is a problem in the making. I think you need to find a shipping method that provides such tracking, or insurance that can cover it if it is not received. Of course, that will probably be more expensive. It is a quandary.
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not only that but if the customer is not happy and posts his displeasure online and verbally to friends, that will likely cost the business in the way of lost sales.
 
Interesting discussion--but you would think that for $110 in shipping charges, the shipping people could (1) ensure the package arrives and (2) step in and fix it when it doesn't.
 
Thomas said:
Interesting discussion--but you would think that for $110 in shipping charges, the shipping people could (1) ensure the package arrives and (2) step in and fix it when it doesn't.
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We used to ship books within the United States. USPS has a special low rate for shipping books which was very attractive. At the beginning we insured each package. But over time we found it was impossible to collect on the insurance for packages that disappeared or were trashed. So we stopped insuring. Later, when we started shipping more expensive items we gave the customer the choice of UPS or FedEx but not USPS. Customers accepted that and we never had an issue with either of those companies.
 
I am disgusted by the amount of folks who buy a tool or appliance from a store to use only for the purpose at hand, with the intention of returning it afterwards for a refund! Seems to be more common than I thought! Their argument is why rent it when you can use it for free? Same with "did not receive package" (when they indeed did receive). Some people take advantage...it is frustrating that this mentality appears to be acceptable practice with a portion of unscrupulous buyers!
 
lobo said:
I am disgusted by the amount of folks who buy a tool or appliance from a store to use only for the purpose at hand, with the intention of returning it afterwards for a refund! Seems to be more common than I thought! Their argument is why rent it when you can use it for free? Same with "did not receive package" (when they indeed did receive). Some people take advantage...it is frustrating that this mentality appears to be acceptable practice with a portion of unscrupulous buyers!
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Dastardly.
 
i do not think this is a simple black and white right or wrong situation.

there are unknown factors like the unscrupulous buyers for example i get an order for 4 pieces of boxwood 2 x 4 x 20 and send it out. Then an Email saying i only sent 2 and he wants the "other" 2.
Checking the USPS recipe the weight = 4 pieces not 2. if i sent 2 it would have been 1/2 the weight. Then it is oh the package was open and 2 must of fallen out. Nope again they are bound together if one falls out they all do.

order sent to a wrong address because a customer either moved and no forwarding address or just the wrong address. not my fault or the post offices fault.

so what do you do as the business? it was returned to you but is the business giong to pay the 75 bucks to resend it/

orders sitting in Canadian customs for 5 weeks not my problem.

the United States Postal Service is quite good and they offer insurance and tracking and something just getting lost is rare within the US.

but try to collect on that insurance that is another matter.

at the receiving of a package i too would be irate if i spent 100 bucks and got nothing and sure i need to blame someone and where is my stuff or my money?
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
i do not think this is a simple black and white right or wrong situation.

there are unknown factors like the unscrupulous buyers for example i get an order for 4 pieces of boxwood 2 x 4 x 20 and send it out. Then an Email saying i only sent 2 and he wants the "other" 2.
Checking the USPS recipe the weight = 4 pieces not 2. if i sent 2 it would have been 1/2 the weight. Then it is oh the package was open and 2 must of fallen out. Nope again they are bound together if one falls out they all do.....
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A co-worker was into depression glass buy & sell on a popular auction site. He would discretely mark his offerings because more than a few would buy his items to swap it out with an identical item in their collection that was not as good as the one being offered. They would then return their inferior piece & claim not as advertised! Got to the point he just had to give it up!
Dave, you brought up change of address in a few postings now...must be a sore point! I agree with you. How is it a vendors problem if the buyer moves without notifying the vendor before the item ships? Seems like buyer stupidity. Vendor has no control in that situation.
 
lobo said:
A co-worker was into depression glass buy & sell on a popular auction site. He would discretely mark his offerings because more than a few would buy his items to swap it out with an identical item in their collection that was not as good as the one being offered. They would then return their inferior piece & claim not as advertised! Got to the point he just had to give it up!
Dave, you brought up change of address in a few postings now...must be a sore point! I agree with you. How is it a vendors problem if the buyer moves without notifying the vendor before the item ships? Seems like buyer stupidity. Vendor has no control in that situation.
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More over,why somebody order anything online if they are going to move,or they got evicted??
 
A popular in line buying site that offers resale that has a policy where a customer can dispute the purchase as “not as advertised” with the intent to force a reduced price…helpful in theory until unscrupulous buyers make up flaws that are expected in used items…like small wear marks or something. Yeah…way too many crooks out there…
 
i will say in the 30 some years dealing with the ship modeling community i will say it is 99.9% good honerst people.

There have been a few deals gone bad but i also sell to woodworkers, woodcarvers, woodturners so any bad deals may not have been from ship modelers.
 
Interesting discussion and I'd like the add my two cents.
I recently placed an order for items and was given a UPS tracking number. After a couple of days I received a notice from UPS stating that the carton was damaged (Read, broken open) and the items were missing, the carton discarded, and the shipper notified. I called the company to inquire as to the status of my order and was informed that they were indeed notified by UPS and they were shipping replacement items to me. They (the company) have filed a claim with UPS.
IMHO, this is the way a missing order should be handled. I don't feel that an order placed in good face by a customer to a company, mom and pop, big box, Amazon or other should be held responsible in any way for an order that was lost or damaged.
Unfortunately I view this as the price of doing business and yes it is harder on a small mom and pop business.

What also irritates me is people who place multiple orders for different variants of the same item in order to touchy-feely the item then select the one they want and return the others. If you want touchy-feely then go to the brick and mortar store.
 
What also irritates me is people who place multiple orders for different variants of the same item in order to touchy-feely the item then select the one they want and return the others. If you want touchy-feely then go to the brick and mortar store.

going to the brick and mortar store is not always the answer a growing trend these days is "available on line only"
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
What also irritates me is people who place multiple orders for different variants of the same item in order to touchy-feely the item then select the one they want and return the others. If you want touchy-feely then go to the brick and mortar store.

going to the brick and mortar store is not always the answer a growing trend these days is "available on line only"
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I don't ever do that. If I order the wrong part, I keep it and find a use for it. Sending back a pile of unused items annoys the seller.
 
having taken a straw poll the general thoughts were if a customer orders something it is expected by the customer that the business delivers that product regardless of what happens to it along the way.

but now it looks like the times they are changing this is posted by Target retail store

putting the responsibility where it belongs with the carrier and not the business.

because sales are out numbering go to the store and buy it, on line shops are not taking the hit for delievery problems.


Target includes a clause on its site that
says the risk of loss passes to the buyer
after the company delivers an order to
a carrier. Still, the company says on its
site that customers who can’t find their
deliveries can request a replacement or a
refund online.


there is a problem with porch pirates people stealing packages

Amazon delievers the package, takes a picture of the package on your door step and sends a message the package was delivered. So you know it is there if you leave it there and it gets stolen that is your problem not Amazon or the US postal. Everytime i order something i am notified it has been delieverd.
 
Why not ship international orders by UPS or FedEx?. This way tracking can be maintained all the way from the sender to the recipient.
Even if it cast more than USPS the additional cost is worth it.
 
BarrySR said:
Why not ship international orders by UPS or FedEx?. This way tracking can be maintained all the way from the sender to the recipient.
Even if it cast more than USPS the additional cost is worth it.
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Be careful. UPS charges a customs brokerage fee to clear customs. This has got me before even when importing into Canada from the US goods that are duty free under the NAFTA agreement. It was tens of dollars. They did the same to me on a kit coming in from the UK. The post office does not do this.
 
Is there a hobby shop you can get to? To stay in business they must have some way to get goods delivered. Maybe you could order whatever you need through them and pick it up at their store?
 
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