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What Makes a Ship Model Valuable to Others?

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Dear Paul,

Thank you for taking the time to carefully answer my question. I admit that I come from a different era in ship modeling. The community was smaller - and we gathered in person rather frequently (at least several times each year). When we critiqued each others work it was done from a place of relationship. That must be much harder today. Let me close by once again offering you my personal encouragement: you are a gifted ship modeler and I hope you continue to develop your skills.

My best to you,

Fred
Greetings, Fred.

You bring up something very helpful. Relationships with others in a virtual environment are challenging to develop and probably never fully form in the way a face-to-face relationship can. Still, with a significant investment of time, I now consider many of the members of this forum my (virtual) friends. I believe I could safely post things on their build reports (and they on mine) and those comments would be read and understood within the context of our established relationship. I believe the Ships of Scale forum has largely, though not perfectly, cultivated that sort of environment.

I would welcome your comments and corrections on my current project as you wish. And I thank you once again for your encouragement.

Be blessed.
 
.​

I hesitated before publishing the following, but oh well, at worst I'll be lynched by some :).

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick, and certainly not so categorical in my assessment of Bob's statements. He speaks logically and convincingly, even on difficult issues that may seem uncomfortable or wrong to many. But that's not even the point. First of all, it is important to remember that it is not always possible to speak directly about all issues here due to the restrictions imposed by the forum rules, and it is necessary to use techniques such as mental shortcuts, generalisations, indirect suggestions or analogies, which may not always be picked up on, and as a result, misunderstandings arise. In short, it is quite possible that Bob's thoughts were not understood entirely as he intended.

I know what I am talking about, because I myself am a victim of quite notorious, conscious and unconscious twisting of my statements (on important and unimportant matters), and it is hard to believe how much one can twist or misunderstand the essence of seemingly simple messages. Admittedly, for some time now I have been taking preventive measures, which consist of formulating my statements in the simplest possible way, but as it turns out, this is still not always effective in practice, because people simply prefer to see what is not there and at the same time refuse to see what is actually there.

An example will be given, perhaps related in some way to the real, but somewhat hidden, intention behind Bob's statement, which may have been prematurely deemed offensive.

Due to crimes and suffering on the unimaginable scale that occurred quite recently in history, the promotion of totalitarian ideas and systems is prohibited by law in some European countries, under threat of specific criminal sanctions. And rightly so, because, unfortunately, for some reasons, what would seem to be only a historical legacy is once again becoming a real threat today, and against this background, social ‘derision’ and “condemnation” of the propagators of such totalitarian ideas seems to be a very mild, preliminary ‘sanction’, or perhaps it would be better to say a ‘barrier’ (at least in comparison to more painful criminal sanctions), preventing a very dangerous development of the social situation with all its tragic consequences, and on a massive scale. The sad truth is that when people still have time to come to their senses and are still allowed to make real choices, they too often fail to do so in a rational and conscious manner, and later it is too late, because they become only the object of unpunished deception by their elected representatives. At least, such are the real and very painful experiences in this region of the world.

Bob, am I on the right track?

.​
 
.​

I hesitated before publishing the following, but oh well, at worst I'll be lynched by some :).

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick, and certainly not so categorical in my assessment of Bob's statements. He speaks logically and convincingly, even on difficult issues that may seem uncomfortable or wrong to many. But that's not even the point. First of all, it is important to remember that it is not always possible to speak directly about all issues here due to the restrictions imposed by the forum rules, and it is necessary to use techniques such as mental shortcuts, generalisations, indirect suggestions or analogies, which may not always be picked up on, and as a result, misunderstandings arise. In short, it is quite possible that Bob's thoughts were not understood entirely as he intended.

I know what I am talking about, because I myself am a victim of quite notorious, conscious and unconscious twisting of my statements (on important and unimportant matters), and it is hard to believe how much one can twist or misunderstand the essence of seemingly simple messages. Admittedly, for some time now I have been taking preventive measures, which consist of formulating my statements in the simplest possible way, but as it turns out, this is still not always effective in practice, because people simply prefer to see what is not there and at the same time refuse to see what is actually there.

An example will be given, perhaps related in some way to the real, but somewhat hidden, intention behind Bob's statement, which may have been prematurely deemed offensive.

Due to crimes and suffering on the unimaginable scale that occurred quite recently in history, the promotion of totalitarian ideas and systems is prohibited by law in some European countries, under threat of specific criminal sanctions. And rightly so, because, unfortunately, for some reasons, what would seem to be only a historical legacy is once again becoming a real threat today, and against this background, social ‘derision’ and “condemnation” of the propagators of such totalitarian ideas seems to be a very mild, preliminary ‘sanction’, or perhaps it would be better to say a ‘barrier’ (at least in comparison to more painful criminal sanctions), preventing a very dangerous development of the social situation with all its tragic consequences, and on a massive scale. The sad truth is that when people still have time to come to their senses and are still allowed to make real choices, they too often fail to do so in a rational and conscious manner, and later it is too late, because they become only the object of unpunished deception by their elected representatives. At least, such are the real and very painful experiences in this region of the world.

Bob, am I on the right track?

.​

Waldemar, at least you will not be lynched by me. ;)

I appreciate your effort to interpret Bob’s position generously. However, I think the direction you’re taking becomes somewhat evasive of the actual issue being discussed.
This thread concerns what makes ship models valuable to others, but soon enough it shifted to standards in ship modeling, not political systems, not social collapse, and not the legal safeguards against totalitarian ideology. Introducing such comparisons significantly elevates the scale of the discussion and reframes disagreement over modeling philosophy as something far more consequential than it is.

No one here is denying the importance of historical accuracy or high standards. The disagreement, in Bob's last post, lies in whether social derision and condemnation are appropriate tools within a hobby community. That question stands on its own and does not require analogy to far more serious historical matters.

I believe we would serve the discussion better by keeping it proportional to its subject, BTW, as was asked by the post originator a few posts earlier.
 
.​

I hesitated before publishing the following, but oh well, at worst I'll be lynched by some :).

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick, and certainly not so categorical in my assessment of Bob's statements. He speaks logically and convincingly, even on difficult issues that may seem uncomfortable or wrong to many. But that's not even the point. First of all, it is important to remember that it is not always possible to speak directly about all issues here due to the restrictions imposed by the forum rules, and it is necessary to use techniques such as mental shortcuts, generalisations, indirect suggestions or analogies, which may not always be picked up on, and as a result, misunderstandings arise. In short, it is quite possible that Bob's thoughts were not understood entirely as he intended.

I know what I am talking about, because I myself am a victim of quite notorious, conscious and unconscious twisting of my statements (on important and unimportant matters), and it is hard to believe how much one can twist or misunderstand the essence of seemingly simple messages. Admittedly, for some time now I have been taking preventive measures, which consist of formulating my statements in the simplest possible way, but as it turns out, this is still not always effective in practice, because people simply prefer to see what is not there and at the same time refuse to see what is actually there.

An example will be given, perhaps related in some way to the real, but somewhat hidden, intention behind Bob's statement, which may have been prematurely deemed offensive.

Due to crimes and suffering on the unimaginable scale that occurred quite recently in history, the promotion of totalitarian ideas and systems is prohibited by law in some European countries, under threat of specific criminal sanctions. And rightly so, because, unfortunately, for some reasons, what would seem to be only a historical legacy is once again becoming a real threat today, and against this background, social ‘derision’ and “condemnation” of the propagators of such totalitarian ideas seems to be a very mild, preliminary ‘sanction’, or perhaps it would be better to say a ‘barrier’ (at least in comparison to more painful criminal sanctions), preventing a very dangerous development of the social situation with all its tragic consequences, and on a massive scale. The sad truth is that when people still have time to come to their senses and are still allowed to make real choices, they too often fail to do so in a rational and conscious manner, and later it is too late, because they become only the object of unpunished deception by their elected representatives. At least, such are the real and very painful experiences in this region of the world.

Bob, am I on the right track?

.​

Most decidedly! Your comments are most accurate.

There are two things that motivate my expressed concerns. First there is the overall devaluation of the art of scale ship modeling. Second is the recently monetized "industry" of scale ship modeling which turns many newcomers who could be progressing in the development of the art into little more than unwitting consumers to be preyed upon by commercialized interests. Like most other fine arts, scale ship modeling is not immune to the self-destructive tendencies of our current social environment. "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Your comments hit those two nails right on their heads.
 
.​
Sigh. In post #151 Bob was responding to a concern I raised in post #140. If one reviews those posts you can see the context was rather different than these recent proposals might claim. Contextual revisionism is unproductive and works contrary to advancing the conversation.

Well, it was fun, but eventually one has to get back to work... :) I just received a private message asking about a rather difficult and so far poorly understood aspect of hull shaping. I wonder why it's usually in private messages and not publicly... Anyway, hopefully this will be a more productive exercise :).
 
Emotional discussions through electronic medium are unproductive and unhealthy. Think the COVID generation

I've seen relatives misread/interpret/read into/take out of context, messages of others who are trying to appear erudite, sophisticated, important, or often, just typing word salad.

On forums like this, I give CREDIBILITY based on accessible online footprint.

I'm sure I would have fascinating lunches with ALL the people posting in this thread. We love model shipbuilding, right?

Some people place their work on display for all to discuss.
Some give positive feedback, encouragement, and critiques to others, regardless of skill level.
No elitism or condemnation.
I respect these mentors.

Others have not posted a single picture of their work here or Wooden Boat Forum, or Model Ship World (that I can discern). I can't take them seriously, so I ignore or disregard their word salad. IMHO they have not established any CREDIBLITY for me to judge them.

First thing I do when discussing leadership for corporations, service academies, presidential libraries, etc is establish CREDIBILTY. It only takes a few seconds.

On-line, modeling CREDIBILITY is derived (IMHO), mostly from visible signs of expertise, not word salad or rambling posts.

I'm sure all the modelers, including me, who didn't address the original post, could have better spent their time at the workbench! :cool:
ORBeerwith friends!

Cheers Mates!
 
Hi Brad, @BradNSW
you bring up a very important point. How often do misunderstandings arise because of a missing or incorrectly placed comma, etc.? On top of that, I'm using a translator.
A good example: the longer my sentence is in German, the more nonsense it comes out in the translation. So I always have to make sure my sentence is as short as possible. These are additional obstacles that are unintentionally introduced.

We're talking about standards here, okay.
I'd like to share a thought process with you. When I talk about a certain standard, there's a set of rules or regulations that define it, right? So, person X has to rate according to this standard and has a scale of 1-10 for doing so.
And that's where, in my opinion, everything falls apart. Why? 1-10, person X gives it a 1, person Y gives it a 7. And now I'm in a dilemma. I have two ratings, two different opinions, and therefore it's no longer a standard.
Another example from sports was also brought up, especially since the Olympics are currently underway.

Well, what can I say? It's absolutely clear-cut when something can be measured by time or distance, or how many goals I score. If we think about figure skating and there are multiple judges, it becomes more complicated. Because then it's a matter of discretion, meaning arbitrariness. I don't like the way she wears her hair, so I deduct a point. It has nothing to do with performance but with appearance. This point deduction isn't even conscious, as it's a subconscious decision. I could give countless more examples.

So, what exactly can I standardize and what can't I? In model making, I don't think that's possible. And when a manufacturer writes on the packaging, "It's possible to build a top-quality, museum-grade model," I wonder what they mean by that.
Exactly, IT IS POSSIBLE. But it ultimately depends on my skills whether I can achieve it or not. And yes, there are model builders who can turn garbage into gold, but also those who can turn gold into garbage.
The discussion touched on art and art objects, but art is not comparable to model making. A 300-year-old model of a frigate ship displayed in a museum is not a work of art in the figurative sense; it is an exhibit and, of course, has a certain value. But it is not comparable to the Mona Lisa. We find both in museums. A pharaoh's sarcophagus, ornately decorated with precious metals and gemstones, is 5,000 years old. It has a certain value due to its materials, as well as its age and history. But is it a work of art, like a painting or even a ship model by Blasi Oliver?
Where is the standard?
What are our models actually worth, or how can I determine their value?
Perhaps at auctions, or on commissions?
If I'm asked today what I want for my La Palme, my answer is "it's not for sale." But is it then priceless? Everything has its price, and when I say everything, I mean everything. And if a businessman were to offer me €1,000,000, it would be sold without a second thought. Whether this businessman has any idea if everything is historically accurate, whether the side should be hammered left or right, whether the anchor looked like that in 1747 or is incorrect, etc., he has no clue 90% of the time. He simply thinks it looks good for his lobby.
I think we primarily determine the value of our models ourselves, based on our skills, accuracy, and the execution of our work. Some model-building colleagues regularly participate in events and competitions, and the best among them are well-known and would certainly win very good prizes with their models.
There's a market for everything; it might not be quite as large for ship models, but it exists nonetheless.
 
Gentlemen, thank you for posting your thoughts.

And with that perhaps it's time to suspend this thread (@Jimsky - can that be done?). What was envisioned was accomplished: a discussion of how ship models are valued in the collector market. We also experienced more than a little thread drift. Some prefer this on a social media forum. I do not. Indeed, it makes a forum - which intends to provide an orderly sharing of work and ideas - chaotic and untethered.

Thanks to everyone who provided substantive content. I, for one, am eager to return to my workbench far away from some of what I experienced here.

Grace and peace. And if these seem in short supply - at least be kind to one another.
 
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