What Makes a Ship Model Valuable to Others?

[dockattner]

Dear Paul,

Thank you for taking the time to carefully answer my question. I admit that I come from a different era in ship modeling. The community was smaller - and we gathered in person rather frequently (at least several times each year). When we critiqued each others work it was done from a place of relationship. That must be much harder today. Let me close by once again offering you my personal encouragement: you are a gifted ship modeler and I hope you continue to develop your skills.

My best to you,

Fred

Greetings, Fred.

You bring up something very helpful. Relationships with others in a virtual environment are challenging to develop and probably never fully form in the way a face-to-face relationship can. Still, with a significant investment of time, I now consider many of the members of this forum my (virtual) friends. I believe I could safely post things on their build reports (and they on mine) and those comments would be read and understood within the context of our established relationship. I believe the Ships of Scale forum has largely, though not perfectly, cultivated that sort of environment.

I would welcome your comments and corrections on my current project as you wish. And I thank you once again for your encouragement.

Be blessed.

 

[-Waldemar-]

.​

I hesitated before publishing the following, but oh well, at worst I'll be lynched by some .

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick, and certainly not so categorical in my assessment of Bob's statements. He speaks logically and convincingly, even on difficult issues that may seem uncomfortable or wrong to many. But that's not even the point. First of all, it is important to remember that it is not always possible to speak directly about all issues here due to the restrictions imposed by the forum rules, and it is necessary to use techniques such as mental shortcuts, generalisations, indirect suggestions or analogies, which may not always be picked up on, and as a result, misunderstandings arise. In short, it is quite possible that Bob's thoughts were not understood entirely as he intended.

I know what I am talking about, because I myself am a victim of quite notorious, conscious and unconscious twisting of my statements (on important and unimportant matters), and it is hard to believe how much one can twist or misunderstand the essence of seemingly simple messages. Admittedly, for some time now I have been taking preventive measures, which consist of formulating my statements in the simplest possible way, but as it turns out, this is still not always effective in practice, because people simply prefer to see what is not there and at the same time refuse to see what is actually there.

An example will be given, perhaps related in some way to the real, but somewhat hidden, intention behind Bob's statement, which may have been prematurely deemed offensive.

Due to crimes and suffering on the unimaginable scale that occurred quite recently in history, the promotion of totalitarian ideas and systems is prohibited by law in some European countries, under threat of specific criminal sanctions. And rightly so, because, unfortunately, for some reasons, what would seem to be only a historical legacy is once again becoming a real threat today, and against this background, social ‘derision’ and “condemnation” of the propagators of such totalitarian ideas seems to be a very mild, preliminary ‘sanction’, or perhaps it would be better to say a ‘barrier’ (at least in comparison to more painful criminal sanctions), preventing a very dangerous development of the social situation with all its tragic consequences, and on a massive scale. The sad truth is that when people still have time to come to their senses and are still allowed to make real choices, they too often fail to do so in a rational and conscious manner, and later it is too late, because they become only the object of unpunished deception by their elected representatives. At least, such are the real and very painful experiences in this region of the world.

Bob, am I on the right track?

.​

 

[Jimsky]

.​

I hesitated before publishing the following, but oh well, at worst I'll be lynched by some .

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick, and certainly not so categorical in my assessment of Bob's statements. He speaks logically and convincingly, even on difficult issues that may seem uncomfortable or wrong to many. But that's not even the point. First of all, it is important to remember that it is not always possible to speak directly about all issues here due to the restrictions imposed by the forum rules, and it is necessary to use techniques such as mental shortcuts, generalisations, indirect suggestions or analogies, which may not always be picked up on, and as a result, misunderstandings arise. In short, it is quite possible that Bob's thoughts were not understood entirely as he intended.

I know what I am talking about, because I myself am a victim of quite notorious, conscious and unconscious twisting of my statements (on important and unimportant matters), and it is hard to believe how much one can twist or misunderstand the essence of seemingly simple messages. Admittedly, for some time now I have been taking preventive measures, which consist of formulating my statements in the simplest possible way, but as it turns out, this is still not always effective in practice, because people simply prefer to see what is not there and at the same time refuse to see what is actually there.

An example will be given, perhaps related in some way to the real, but somewhat hidden, intention behind Bob's statement, which may have been prematurely deemed offensive.

Due to crimes and suffering on the unimaginable scale that occurred quite recently in history, the promotion of totalitarian ideas and systems is prohibited by law in some European countries, under threat of specific criminal sanctions. And rightly so, because, unfortunately, for some reasons, what would seem to be only a historical legacy is once again becoming a real threat today, and against this background, social ‘derision’ and “condemnation” of the propagators of such totalitarian ideas seems to be a very mild, preliminary ‘sanction’, or perhaps it would be better to say a ‘barrier’ (at least in comparison to more painful criminal sanctions), preventing a very dangerous development of the social situation with all its tragic consequences, and on a massive scale. The sad truth is that when people still have time to come to their senses and are still allowed to make real choices, they too often fail to do so in a rational and conscious manner, and later it is too late, because they become only the object of unpunished deception by their elected representatives. At least, such are the real and very painful experiences in this region of the world.

Bob, am I on the right track?

.​

Waldemar, at least you will not be lynched by me.

I appreciate your effort to interpret Bob’s position generously. However, I think the direction you’re taking becomes somewhat evasive of the actual issue being discussed.
This thread concerns what makes ship models valuable to others, but soon enough it shifted to standards in ship modeling, not political systems, not social collapse, and not the legal safeguards against totalitarian ideology. Introducing such comparisons significantly elevates the scale of the discussion and reframes disagreement over modeling philosophy as something far more consequential than it is.

No one here is denying the importance of historical accuracy or high standards. The disagreement, in Bob's last post, lies in whether social derision and condemnation are appropriate tools within a hobby community. That question stands on its own and does not require analogy to far more serious historical matters.

I believe we would serve the discussion better by keeping it proportional to its subject, BTW, as was asked by the post originator a few posts earlier.

 

[Bob Cleek]

.​

I hesitated before publishing the following, but oh well, at worst I'll be lynched by some .

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick, and certainly not so categorical in my assessment of Bob's statements. He speaks logically and convincingly, even on difficult issues that may seem uncomfortable or wrong to many. But that's not even the point. First of all, it is important to remember that it is not always possible to speak directly about all issues here due to the restrictions imposed by the forum rules, and it is necessary to use techniques such as mental shortcuts, generalisations, indirect suggestions or analogies, which may not always be picked up on, and as a result, misunderstandings arise. In short, it is quite possible that Bob's thoughts were not understood entirely as he intended.

I know what I am talking about, because I myself am a victim of quite notorious, conscious and unconscious twisting of my statements (on important and unimportant matters), and it is hard to believe how much one can twist or misunderstand the essence of seemingly simple messages. Admittedly, for some time now I have been taking preventive measures, which consist of formulating my statements in the simplest possible way, but as it turns out, this is still not always effective in practice, because people simply prefer to see what is not there and at the same time refuse to see what is actually there.

An example will be given, perhaps related in some way to the real, but somewhat hidden, intention behind Bob's statement, which may have been prematurely deemed offensive.

Due to crimes and suffering on the unimaginable scale that occurred quite recently in history, the promotion of totalitarian ideas and systems is prohibited by law in some European countries, under threat of specific criminal sanctions. And rightly so, because, unfortunately, for some reasons, what would seem to be only a historical legacy is once again becoming a real threat today, and against this background, social ‘derision’ and “condemnation” of the propagators of such totalitarian ideas seems to be a very mild, preliminary ‘sanction’, or perhaps it would be better to say a ‘barrier’ (at least in comparison to more painful criminal sanctions), preventing a very dangerous development of the social situation with all its tragic consequences, and on a massive scale. The sad truth is that when people still have time to come to their senses and are still allowed to make real choices, they too often fail to do so in a rational and conscious manner, and later it is too late, because they become only the object of unpunished deception by their elected representatives. At least, such are the real and very painful experiences in this region of the world.

Bob, am I on the right track?

.​

Most decidedly! Your comments are most accurate.

There are two things that motivate my expressed concerns. First there is the overall devaluation of the art of scale ship modeling. Second is the recently monetized "industry" of scale ship modeling which turns many newcomers who could be progressing in the development of the art into little more than unwitting consumers to be preyed upon by commercialized interests. Like most other fine arts, scale ship modeling is not immune to the self-destructive tendencies of our current social environment. "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Your comments hit those two nails right on their heads.

 

[dockattner]

Sigh. In post #151 Bob was responding to a concern I raised in post #140. If one reviews those posts you can see the context was rather different than these recent proposals might claim. Contextual revisionism is unproductive and works contrary to advancing the conversation.

 

[-Waldemar-]

.​

Sigh. In post #151 Bob was responding to a concern I raised in post #140. If one reviews those posts you can see the context was rather different than these recent proposals might claim. Contextual revisionism is unproductive and works contrary to advancing the conversation.

Well, it was fun, but eventually one has to get back to work... I just received a private message asking about a rather difficult and so far poorly understood aspect of hull shaping. I wonder why it's usually in private messages and not publicly... Anyway, hopefully this will be a more productive exercise .