What is the Correct way to create ribs on a scratch build.

[GKIP]

Hi,
I would like to attempt a scratch build from plans, but would like to build the correct way, from the beginning. I have been studying the ribs, (an example image is attached),

1. im assuming each part/section of the rib (V,G,L1,L2,L3,L4) is cut with grain running the length of each part.

2. are parts G,L2 L2,L4 V,L1 L1,L3 joined with either a Double Scarph or a Hook and Butt Scarph joint (marked yellow), or is the only joint the ones highlighted in red

I have watched a number of videos, and have not seen anyone cut joints generally just gluing parts together, whilst this works is it the correct way to approach this, I appreciate creating joints takes longer, im not worried about time ( hopefully Ive still got a few years left) I would however like to do it correctly.

I appreciate any feedback, thoughts on this.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

there were so many different framing systems over the years of wooden ship building. Type of ship, where it was built and who built it are factors to consider. There is no one single correct way.

what i see in the drawing the parts in yellow are a butt joint the red circled areas are a joint on the faces of the frames.

 

[Uwek]

May I ask, which ship is it you are working on?
Interesting attempt with a lot of more work, but accurately done it will be extremely interesting to see.

Do you know the building log of Nigel alias @NMBROOK of his Saint-Philippe - I guess you find here some interesting information for you

Saint-Philippe 1693-POF to the Monograph by Jean-Claude Lemineur by NMBrook-1/36

Hello Everyone First a little bit of an introductory post.I always had a passion for the ornately decorated warships of "The Sun King".I did build Sergal's Soleil Royal many years ago.I possessed a desire to build one of these vessels with much more detail and accuracy than the Sergal...

shipsofscale.com

 

[GKIP]

May I ask, which ship is it you are working on?
Interesting attempt with a lot of more work, but accurately done it will be extremely interesting to see.

Do you know the building log of Nigel alias @NMBROOK of his Saint-Philippe - I guess you find here some interesting information for you

Saint-Philippe 1693-POF to the Monograph by Jean-Claude Lemineur by NMBrook-1/36

Hello Everyone First a little bit of an introductory post.I always had a passion for the ornately decorated warships of "The Sun King".I did build Sergal's Soleil Royal many years ago.I possessed a desire to build one of these vessels with much more detail and accuracy than the Sergal...

shipsofscale.com

Hi Uwek,
I haven't started yet still in the planning stages, but the model is The Saint Philippe using the 1:72 Jean-Claude Lemineur monograph from A.N.C.R.E, before starting I wanted to ensure i used the correct method for creating the ribs, My assumption was the rib parts would be jointed to add strength but im unsure hence my question, I was unsure if the individual rib parts should be jointed with scarf joints or the only joint was on the face of the ribs.
I have been following Nigels build log with great interest.

 

[GKIP]

there were so many different framing systems over the years of wooden ship building. Type of ship, where it was built and who built it are factors to consider. There is no one single correct way.

what i see in the drawing the parts in yellow are a butt joint the red circled areas are a joint on the faces of the frames.

Thanks Dave,
I was unsure if the rib pieces would have been originally jointed, as its going to be my first full scratch build I would like to do it right, which was my reason for asking.

 

[NMBROOK]

Hi Gkip

You will struggle to find anything Online regarding building these frames, they are unique to this vessel.There are only two online builds of this ship in POF and one of those is mine.The other builder who also has a build on this forum chose not to represent the mortice and tenon joins between the frame parts.

If you do chose to go this route,I estimate it at least trebbles the amount of work making the 60 plus frames.

Kind Regards

Nigel

 

[GaryA]

Hi All,
Ok, so maybe that is why framing is done mainly in ply which compensates for the various angles the frame cuts pass through. Yes, I guess it saves time, but if the framing can be hidden "then what no one sees no one will ever see" philosophy is used.
I am now thinking about what I must do when I get to that stage.

 

[AndyA]

First let's get our nomenclature straight. We're talking about frames, not ribs. And frames are made up of futtocks. For clarification, see the drawing below from the website for the schooner Ernestina. Brother Dave is correct in saying that construction of frames can vary depending on a number of factors. In general, futtocks are cut from crooks (pieces of a tree with natural bends) that match the curves of the frames. Photo below shows a futtock for the Ernestina. The number of futtocks in a frame varies depending on the overall size, the amount of curvature, and the shapes of available crooks. It is difficult, but not impossible to recreate this in model making. It requires harvesting your own little lumber crooks and cutting these for your futtocks. Fair winds!

 

[Corsair]

Let me start by saying that there are many modelers on here that are more skilled and knowledgeable than I am.
Going strictly by what is shown on the picture you provided, it looks like the joints between all the fore timbers and the joints between all the aft timbers are just butt joints. This is not too much of a big deal since the joints of the timbers on the fore or aft are over lapped by a solid piece. However, it appears there are scarf joints between the fore and aft timbers. In addition, there is a taper from the bottom to the top. Also, it may be showing that the fore and aft sides alternate in relation to the futtock pieces. In other words. On one frame, you will have L1 and L3 and the fore side and on the next frame, you would have L2 and L4 on the fore side. However, that may be better shown in the rest of the plans.

I hope that helps!

Jeff

 

[Don Case]

If I was to undertake this build the first thing I would do is build one frame just to see how tough it is. I did a lot of research on framing when I started the Discovery1789 but I've never seen frames like that. Very complex and tough to do. And re-do's. Lots of those

 

[AllanKP69]

The best instructions I have seen for making frames is in Volume I of The Fully Framed Model by David Antscherl. It covers square frames, cant frames, fashion pieces, scarphs and chocks and more.

 

[tonyvou13]

Harold Hahan has a great system for building frames from scratch and setting them up. If you can find one of his books I think it would be worth your time and effort.

 

[AllanKP69]

The Hahn system works very well but has nothing to do with how frames were actually made. Then again, many contemporary models are not framed as the actual ships were framed. The first photo is a model that was framed on one side showing framing from the time cant frames came into use and the other side with framing prior to that time will all square frames. There are a number of photos of this model at the RMG Collections site. The second photo shows Bellona with framing practice similar to an actual ship as well. The third photo is another contemporary model showing stylistic framing commonly used on many models, but not what would be used on the actual ships. There are hundreds of photos of models in frame at the RMG site. There were rules and scantlings for framing but modelers have choices.

 

[Uwek]

Maybe you take also a look at this topic - it could be of some interest

Keel / Cross Piece / Floor and Half Floor Timber / Futtock - Composite models by James Lees

We know James Lees usually as the author of one of important publication about rigging like The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War: 1625–1860 In addition, Lees (often referred to as "Jim") had a passion for ship modelling, leading him to construct and restore many models of historic...

shipsofscale.com

 

[Uwek]

Not scratch, but very detailed framing like on the original ship you can find also at the Granado section

HMS GRANADO (1742) - midship section - POF by CAF in 1:48 - by Uwe

Some days ago I started working on a new project - HMS GRANADO - bomb vessel midship section - POF by @CAFmodel in 1:48 I made already a detailed kit review, where you can find more detailed Information abou the content and also the specialities of this kit, like the correct framing, the...

shipsofscale.com

 

[GaryA]

First let's get our nomenclature straight. We're talking about frames, not ribs. And frames are made up of futtocks. For clarification, see the drawing below from the website for the schooner Ernestina. Brother Dave is correct in saying that construction of frames can vary depending on a number of factors. In general, futtocks are cut from crooks (pieces of a tree with natural bends) that match the curves of the frames. Photo below shows a futtock for the Ernestina. The number of futtocks in a frame varies depending on the overall size, the amount of curvature, and the shapes of available crooks. It is difficult, but not impossible to recreate this in model making. It requires harvesting your own little lumber crooks and cutting these for your futtocks. Fair winds!

View attachment 447427View attachment 447430

Thanks, Andy I have corrected it. Just a learner's mistake. A new language talking about parts of a model ship for me.

 

[Sgt_Bill]

Harold Hahn's framing method is well documented in The Romero Practicum "HMS Warrior 1781". It's all in Vol 1. I find it curious that the laminates are interlocked with each other (Black reference). I've never seen that. IMO it would be difficult overkill on a model.

 

[GaryA]

First let's get our nomenclature straight. We're talking about frames, not ribs. And frames are made up of futtocks. For clarification, see the drawing below from the website for the schooner Ernestina. Brother Dave is correct in saying that construction of frames can vary depending on a number of factors. In general, futtocks are cut from crooks (pieces of a tree with natural bends) that match the curves of the frames. Photo below shows a futtock for the Ernestina. The number of futtocks in a frame varies depending on the overall size, the amount of curvature, and the shapes of available crooks. It is difficult, but not impossible to recreate this in model making. It requires harvesting your own little lumber crooks and cutting these for your futtocks. Fair winds!

View attachment 447427View attachment 447430

Hi AndyA, I have edited my not politically correct wording. Regards

 

[AllanKP69]

The Romero Practicum "HMS Warrior 1781"

Wasn't William J. Romero convicted of child sexual abuse? If so why would anyone use or recommend anything of his after what he did?
Allan

 

[Jimsky]

Wasn't William J. Romero convicted of child sexual abuse? If so why would anyone use or recommend anything of his after what he did?
Allan

Alan, the last thing this forum requires is your moral studies. We are adults here, and I am sure, each of us can make wise decisions ourselves. This is the second notice in a few days...Please stick to the topics!