Soleil Royal 1669 by Oliveras P. in Navios - planset information

[GuyM]

Oh, I forgot; the Foudroyant stern art represents Jupiter riding an eagle and holding/ throwing thunderbolts...At least that's what I read

 

[WojtasS]

I don't think I could dig up much more then you. Those informations are super interesting. Maybe somebody else could add some more as this level of deatails is just out of my leage

 

[GuyM]

I don't think I could dig up much more then you. Those informations are super interesting. Maybe somebody else could add some more as this level of deatails is just out of my leage

I don't think it's out of your league) sometimes you can simply fall on something which isn't main knowledge and is interesting; it's how I happened to find the pic of the stern of the unidentified ship the rest is more or less obsession)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[GuyM]

I don't think it's out of your league) sometimes you can simply fall on something which isn't main knowledge and is interesting; it's how I happened to find the pic of the stern of the unidentified ship the rest is more or less obsession)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Case and point here)) I just found the Terrible's drawings of the side galleries (bottles), and front apron; the design is pure Berain and resembles quite a lot to the 1693 Saint-Philippe; so, totally enclosed bottles with two rows of windows (real and painted as it was in the days), and two balconies on the stern ( upper deck and quarterdeck level) meaning three row of windows on the stern structure like the Saint-Philippe.....So, the terrible as a candidate is out of the question.....We're left with fewer ships at this point))) One note, the pic from the beginning is a Caffieri/Berain design, which became more prevalent in the later part of the decade, Like on the Louis XV from the museum and the 1723 Foudroyant...And quite possibly the 1692 Royal Louis......It would have been one of the two design structures defined by the 1686 king's ruling, the other being the Berain style.....

 

[WojtasS]

Hello @GuyM
I would like to continue our discussion if you still watch the forum.

Do you know the author of this art and what ship is on it? I would like to reverse the question, can we even identyfiit, is it just an art work with mixed concepts of sculptures from different ships.



There's description right above a sketch of 1724 Foudroyant in the French Warships in the Age of Sail 1626-1786 about 1743 Royal Louis. She was supposed to be launched in 1743 but was burned on 25 December 1742. On wiki drawings are dated 1745 don't know why. Is this the Caffieri design you mentioned in last post?

So far I only seen a standing figure in the main board sculpting on 1668 RL. That's why my question is, is this ship from painting even real?



Caffieri's Royal Louis 1743


Royal Louis 1668




Caffieri's RL drownings made me confused even more about Foudroyant or rather your decription(ofcourse if I understand you corretly)

First you call this drowing 1725. Later it becomes 1693 and the next one becomes 1723, but where on official drowning are little characters(human sculptures) holding balcony from below on this drawing there's nothing. Even on such bad first photo when you enlarge it they're visible.

On the post #40 you wrote:
"I found something interesting while searching in my books; the Terrible was a first rate 2200 tons three decker also built in 1693 by Blaise Pangalo, who would later build the 1725 Foudroyant, and it is written that he based the whole Foudroyant on the Terrible, only adding a bit of length to it. more over, the artist by the name of Caffieri was responsible for both designs, as the bottom window surrounded by nimph busts, in an otherwise enclosed side gallery. the top flat window with the surrounding balcony also carries his signature."


Could it be the first drawing(below this text) is the 1725 Foudroyant with decorations and sculptures designed by Caffieri, but with open quater galleries?
Also what's the difference between 1723 and 1725 Foudroyant?. 1723 being the date of drawing?




Kepping in mind this is official 1723 Foudroyant

 

[GuyM]

Hi sorry it's been quite a while, but selling, and moving from a house to an apartment requires some logistic with the furniture and all the stuff)) I finally moved last month and lived in a box labyrinth environment for all that time; but I have mostly finished now...
So, first questions first; in my previous replies I jumped from that drawing being potentially the Terrble, to not be the terrible. that is because after initially writing the option of it being the Terrible, I found out that the stern design was a Berain design and not a Caffieri design, so much closer to the St-Philippe than the later Foudroyant; one funadental difference between the two is easy to identify simply by looking at the stern of the St-Philippe, and the structure of the later Foudroyant because they both represent the fundamental difference between them. If Berain closes the side galleies almost completely, Caffieri sticks more with at least the middle and top galleries being of open concept.
You also have to consider that beginning in the 1680's, the side galleries are only 3 french feet wide ( from the hull to the outer side) on each side, as compared to the earlier constructions which were 6 french feet wide. Therefore, if Berin closes all its side galleries, and the Terrible was an artistic work from him, that ship had enclosed galleries and that would not correspond to the drawing.
On the next queston, the 1723-25 Foudroyant is the same ship; it all depends on whether you consider the initial laying down of the construction, or the time it actually is put in the water. In the case of the Foudroyant, the French finances were not great for the naval activities, and the Foudroyant being a ''superfluous'' construction mainly for the king's standing, it didn't have a prioritized time frame for its construction, and it was idled a few times for other more important work on other ships; 1723 was when it was laid down, and 1725 when structurally completed and written down as an active ship of the fleet; there would be still more delays for the decors, but I have not found a timeline for that part.
I do not know who made that drawing, and the ship's name remains a mystery; other options could be ships built in Rochefort docks, But there is no history on those. It doesn't mean I won't be looking for a possible identification, but not right away)
Oh, and as fo the hypothesis of it being the 1693 Foudroyant (initially the Soleil Royal), though there are issues with the drwaing as for that reference, it is still an avenue.......
When I said the the 1725 Foudroyant had been based on the 1692 Terrible, it was more the the structural similarity than the art work itself..

I hope this clarifies your questions a bit)))
Have a great evenng (or day)

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I think I'll stay with Deagostinis dimensions. It needs some work to make the stern galleries proportional and couple of other things too, but It's not that big truble, that little bashing can't solve. Thanks for the help

You're a builder after my own heart, WojitasS !

 

[Uwek]

Did you had already a look into this interesting book by Jean Boudriot?

LES VAISSEAUX de 74 à 120 canons - Historique 1650-1850" by Jean Boudriot & Hubert Berti

Book Review: LES VAISSEAUX de 74 à 120 canons Historique 1650-1850 by Jean Boudriot & Hubert Berti available directly from ancre in french language, unfortunately in moment no other languages https://ancre.fr/fr/ouvrages-de-base/67-vaisseaux-les-de-74-a-120-canons.html 74- to 120-GUN...

shipsofscale.com

 

[AllanKP69]

WojtasS and Guy
I am extremely impressed and love the research you have both done and continue to share. KUDOS!
Allan

 

[GuyM]

Did you had already a look into this interesting book by Jean Boudriot?

LES VAISSEAUX de 74 à 120 canons - Historique 1650-1850" by Jean Boudriot & Hubert Berti

Book Review: LES VAISSEAUX de 74 à 120 canons Historique 1650-1850 by Jean Boudriot & Hubert Berti available directly from ancre in french language, unfortunately in moment no other languages https://ancre.fr/fr/ouvrages-de-base/67-vaisseaux-les-de-74-a-120-canons.html 74- to 120-GUN...

shipsofscale.com

Hi; yes, I have it as part of my ''library''

 

[WojtasS]

To start with the easy one

Did you had already a look into this interesting book by Jean Boudriot?

I don't have. Till there will be an english translation I don't think I could benefit much, as I don't know neither italian or french. The translators don't get the marine terminology.

 

[GuyM]

To start with the easy one

I don't have. Till there will be an english translation I don't think I could benefit much as I don't know neither italian or french. The translators don't get the marine terminology.

Well, if you have questions on the book or anything related to those ships, I'd be glad to help you with that; I do have a big ship library))))
I also have a document which I made about the Soleil Royal and the french royal ships, but it's also in frenchNo marine terms though))

 

[WojtasS]

You're a builder after my own heart, WojitasS !

I'm sorry to disappiont you, but I don't longer have such belief.
But firstly some pictures.



Photo from this angle explains everything. Like I said a year ago. I can't match the Apollo mold with a model or a model with a scetch of stern. The solution to it would be to schrink floors of galleries to make the pillars straight, but it has consequences. Now you need to rescale and resize everything else. I have doubts if it can be done right. Heller has almost everything(Yes I found one small mistake in it), besides there's a ton of other wooden scratch build Soleil in different stages and qualities and one done right doesn't make a difference. If I were to build it I would have to have a hull that is made according to some plans, but no kitbashing- no point in that

As for myself L'Ambitieux is enuogh for me. If I could make it at least in 60% as this on I'll be happy man

 

[GuyM]

I'm sorry to disappiont you, but I don't longer have such belief.
But firstly some pictures.

View attachment 470575

Photo from this angle explains everything. Like I said a year ago. I can't match the Apollo mold with a model or a model with a scetch of stern. The solution to it would be to schrink floors of galleries to make the pillars straight, but it has consequences. Now you need to rescale and resize everything else. I have doubts if it can be done right. Heller has almost everything(Yes I found one small mistake in it), besides there's a ton of other wooden scratch build Soleil in different stages and qualities and one done right doesn't make a difference. If I were to build it I would have to have a hull that is made according to some plans, but no kitbashing- no point in that

As for myself L'Ambitieux is enuogh for me. If I could make it at least in 60% as this on I'll be happy man
View attachment 470601
View attachment 470600
View attachment 470602

Well, at least you'll have proper plans for that one In any case, whether it is the Heller, the De Agostini or others, even the scratch built ones, none of them display what the 1669 Soleil Royal would have looked like. All my research points to somewhat significant differences, except for the stern structure and art work. It remains feasable to make one approaching a more real portrait, with some patience and much work)) As for the Ambitieux, the represented ship never actually was made, btu rather a similar,and later date version of it; the plans for ths one are what Tourville presented to Colbert to show how the hull curvature, the length VS number of guns should be designed, but refused, as there was already many arguments between the different ship masters. That ship was conceived by Pangialo, who also made the first real Ambitieux some time in the late 1680's the first real named one. The plans are from the 1680 original design.

 

[WojtasS]

Hi sorry it's been quite a while, but selling, and moving from a house to an apartment requires some logistic with the furniture and all the stuff)) I finally moved last month and lived in a box labyrinth environment for all that time; but I have mostly finished now...
So, first questions first; in my previous replies I jumped from that drawing being potentially the Terrble, to not be the terrible. that is because after initially writing the option of it being the Terrible, I found out that the stern design was a Berain design and not a Caffieri design, so much closer to the St-Philippe than the later Foudroyant; one funadental difference between the two is easy to identify simply by looking at the stern of the St-Philippe, and the structure of the later Foudroyant because they both represent the fundamental difference between them. If Berain closes the side galleies almost completely, Caffieri sticks more with at least the middle and top galleries being of open concept.
You also have to consider that beginning in the 1680's, the side galleries are only 3 french feet wide ( from the hull to the outer side) on each side, as compared to the earlier constructions which were 6 french feet wide. Therefore, if Berin closes all its side galleries, and the Terrible was an artistic work from him, that ship had enclosed galleries and that would not correspond to the drawing.
On the next queston, the 1723-25 Foudroyant is the same ship; it all depends on whether you consider the initial laying down of the construction, or the time it actually is put in the water. In the case of the Foudroyant, the French finances were not great for the naval activities, and the Foudroyant being a ''superfluous'' construction mainly for the king's standing, it didn't have a prioritized time frame for its construction, and it was idled a few times for other more important work on other ships; 1723 was when it was laid down, and 1725 when structurally completed and written down as an active ship of the fleet; there would be still more delays for the decors, but I have not found a timeline for that part.
I do not know who made that drawing, and the ship's name remains a mystery; other options could be ships built in Rochefort docks, But there is no history on those. It doesn't mean I won't be looking for a possible identification, but not right away)
Oh, and as fo the hypothesis of it being the 1693 Foudroyant (initially the Soleil Royal), though there are issues with the drwaing as for that reference, it is still an avenue.......
When I said the the 1725 Foudroyant had been based on the 1692 Terrible, it was more the the structural similarity than the art work itself..

I hope this clarifies your questions a bit)))
Have a great evenng (or day)

Hi, it carified some thing, still it's confusing. I need to rethink that. I hope I can response sooner then in next year

That ship was conceived by Pangialo, who also made the first real Ambitieux some time in the late 1680's the first real named one. The plans are from the 1680 original design.

At least that is certain

Thanks for responding and sharing your knowledge.

 

[GuyM]

Hi, it carified some thing, still it's confusing. I need to rethink that. I hope I can response sooner then in next year

At least that is certain

Thanks for responding and sharing your knowledge.

Always happy to help

 

[GuyM]

Always happy to help

Good day so, I have researched all the avenues I can think of related to that drawing and the ships identification....
The flag is a big question mark for me, because I have looked all over for something similar, and the closest ( but not really the same) is spain's naval flag hundred years later....So, my guess is the artist didn't research flags and it could be that he wanted to simply wing it, not knowing which would be suited...Or simply wanted o ''throw a wrench'' in the identification process
I am still of the opinion that it is a late 1680's/90's because of the stern and decor characteristics; and the decor highly suggests a French ship of at least 160 french feet. So with that, here is the short list of the possibilities....
1692 Admirable at 160 feet,1693 triomphant at 160 feet, 1693 Pangalo's foudroyant at 166 feet (ex Soleil Royal). It could also be the Foudroyant from 1691 ( burnt at La Hougue), or the 1692 Merveilleux (also burnt at La Hougue) Both were of the same class at 163 feet 9 inches...As for the flag, nothing in the French stock has horizontal stripes until the revolution, so that's dead.....
If by any chance this was actually a spanish ship, of the later part of the Habsburg fleet era, it would have to be the Santissima trinidad of 1692 or the Nuestra Senora de la Conception y las Animas ( probably needed a very big name plate)...But from their stern construction types, it's a long shot......

Have fun

 

[WojtasS]

Sooo, I did guess well it was a spanish flag
As for all mentioned ship I think you have much more chance of solving that riddle.

I found some more pictures of Royal Louis with figurehead and carvings form Paris model of RL, but need more time describe it

 

[GuyM]

Sooo, I did guess well it was a spanish flag
As for all mentioned ship I think you have much more chance of solving that riddle.

I found some more pictures of Royal Louis with figurehead and carvings form Paris model of RL, but need more time describe it

No, I didn't say it was a spanish ship, since the flag does not correspond to anything of that period; it could be dutch, spanish or french, but from apprx 100 years later, although I have not found anything that looks close to that.....
I gave the options of two spanish ship names because those two are the only ones of that period that would correspond in terms of size....
The dutch also had a few, but their type of decor doesn't correspond to anything close to what's drawn.

 

[GuyM]

No, I didn't say it was a spanish ship, since the flag does not correspond to anything of that period; it could be dutch, spanish or french, but from apprx 100 years later, although I have not found anything that looks close to that.....
I gave the options of two spanish ship names because those two are the only ones of that period that would correspond in terms of size....
The dutch also had a few, but their type of decor doesn't correspond to anything close to what's drawn.

Thr Royal Louis in the naval museum of paris is the 1759 version.......