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Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

I wonder if a 3d scanner can do the job of capturing an image so that I can import it into a slicer program? hmm...
 
something i think we all toutched on without realizing... buying a kit means dishing out a large lump sum up front for the ship.

scratch building is smaller amounts of out of pocket over the entire build as you go.

as for the final price... it depends on the choice of materials n updrades like buying special ropes, belaying pins, and better blocks for example. add it all up and i think you'll be very surprised.
 
That’s why I found your final statement a bit surprising. ;) Saying scratch building is far less expensive, as if that’s true for everyone, seems to contradict the flexibility you acknowledged at the beginning of your post.

you got confused by the statement because you missed the point or choose to ignore the point

So asking a person like me i have to say scratch building is far less expensive and i repeat ASKING A PERSON LIKE ME like i said me i have collected a lot of tools and material, knowledge i never implied this is true for everyone
the post started out with someone starting in square one with one kit and the post ends with someone who has years of collecting tools and experience.

here only what you want to hear and disregard what does not fall in line with your ideals.
 
This discussion is really sort of like how high is up. It all depends.

What works for me:

Subject: Everybody seems to assume that scratch building is about Nelson Era sailing warships. My present project is a Great Lakes Steamship.

Materials: I don’t need expensive hardwoods. Ordinary lumberyard pine meets my needs as all surfaces are covered with paper or sheet brass. I have bought brass but this is not particularly expensive in the quantities that I need. I have never built a model that has required cannons. I make all fittings myself including blocks and deadeyes where needed myself. I do have a substantial stash of quality hardwoods mostly harvested by me.

Technology: (as defined in the narrow sense of things computer). I don’t use it. I make all drawings including lines drawings by hand and have no 3-D, CAD driven, CNC, equipment.

Construction Techniques: I have built one POF model using the Hahn method. All other models are solid hull.

Tools: Many of my tools are multi use; they are used for things other than model building.

Ship model building is such a wide activity with so many subjects, techniques, building approaches etc, that one size doesn’t fit all

Roger
 
Roger Pellett said:
I make all drawings including lines drawings by hand
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Got to be because you love doing it that way Roger. I was the same but took the plunge and learned to do 2D work thanks to Wayne Kempson a long time ago now, and happy for it. Saves on paper, space for a drawing table and easy to fix mistakes, (so saves on drafting eraser costs) :)
Allan
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
you got confused by the statement because you missed the point or choose to ignore the point

So asking a person like me i have to say scratch building is far less expensive and i repeat ASKING A PERSON LIKE ME like i said me i have collected a lot of tools and material, knowledge i never implied this is true for everyone
the post started out with someone starting in square one with one kit and the post ends with someone who has years of collecting tools and experience.

here only what you want to hear and disregard what does not fall in line with your ideals.
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Dave, I think you may be missing my point. At no point did I challenge your personal experience; in fact, I respect it. What I responded to was a broader idea I’ve seen mentioned often by some members: that scratch building is inherently cheaper. That’s where I felt it was worth adding some perspective, especially from both the scratch and kit-building sides, where complexity and tooling play a major role in cost.

You were speaking for yourself — I get that. I was speaking to a recurring narrative I’ve noticed in the community. Two different points, not in opposition, just coming from different angles. ;)
 
i get it Jim
maybe a better vs one to the other is if you bought a kit for $1,400.00 and i started the same model with just a set of modeling plans i think i can build the same model for a third of the cost. ONLY because i have a 3D printer and can design and print the cannons and fittings, i have access to an industrial laser cutter and a shop full of tools i collected over the years. plus over the last 60 years i have been building models.
So for me or other in my position can build models far less than buying the $1,400.00 kit.

take the same vs and ask someone building the $1,400.00 kit for the first time and asking them to copy the kit from scratch. chances are it would cost them far more because they DONOT have the tools and experience. buying the tool up front in one go would be expensive and no doubt double if not triple the original cost of the kit

in my opinion anyone coming in this hobby and their goal in the long run is to build ship models from scratch i would suggest jump into scratch building right at the start. Begin you journey small and with a limited amount of tools, just the basic will do. Then ship after ship build you inventory of tools and knowledge.
 
just my opinion i believe scratch building should be supported and perhaps encouraged. Scratch builders should show their work, describe what they are doing and how to do it.
This should not be pushed on anyone or even suggest it is better it is just another road to follow.
if you satisfied building kit after kit that is fine

Putting scratch building out there is just showing there is more to the hobby and if you want to expand you interest then by all means go for it.

i see kits as a loop by its very nature it only goes as far as what the kit makers put out. Scratch building is open ended and there is no limits to your imagination or how a project id built.

scratch and kits both start the same. begin with simple projects and work your way up to more and more complex builds. buying only the tools you need and not what you want
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
i get it Jim
maybe a better vs one to the other is if you bought a kit for $1,400.00 and i started the same model with just a set of modeling plans i think i can build the same model for a third of the cost. ONLY because i have a 3D printer and can design and print the cannons and fittings, i have access to an industrial laser cutter and a shop full of tools i collected over the years. plus over the last 60 years i have been building models.
So for me or other in my position can build models far less than buying the $1,400.00 kit.

take the same vs and ask someone building the $1,400.00 kit for the first time and asking them to copy the kit from scratch. chances are it would cost them far more because they DONOT have the tools and experience. buying the tool up front in one go would be expensive and no doubt double if not triple the original cost of the kit

in my opinion anyone coming in this hobby and their goal in the long run is to build ship models from scratch i would suggest jump into scratch building right at the start. Begin you journey small and with a limited amount of tools, just the basic will do. Then ship after ship build you inventory of tools and knowledge.
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We are cycling in the loop: I get your point, you're speaking from a place of deep experience. You've got the tools, tech, and skills to make scratch building very cost-effective for you, and your breakdown makes sense in that context. But here’s what I keep coming back to: Why is it that in these comparisons, it's always a multi-thousand-dollar kit that gets used as the reference point? That’s an example of high-end, kit, not representative of the majority of what modelers are actually building, especially those just starting out or even those who build regularly.
There are many excellent kits in the budgeted $150–$400 range that offer great value, challenge, and satisfaction. In my earlier post, I mentioned the Le Leudo kit priced at $160, but it seems that was treated as an exception. I could list several other kits in a similar price range, but I suspect they’d be dismissed the same way, as outliers rather than valid points of comparison.

If we’re going to have an honest conversation about cost, I think we should include the full spectrum, not just the extremes. Otherwise, it starts to sound like scratch building is always the smarter, more economical choice, which I don’t believe holds true across the board, IMHO
 
One of the first books on ship modeling that I had bought was 'American Ship Models and How to Build Them' by V.R. Grimwood. I believe the book was first published in the early 1940's - well before many of the more expensive now available tools for model builders. The book remains available and is very inexpensive to obtain. It outlines how to build approximately a dozen models in order of increasing difficulty and complexity. Essentially all the hulls for the models are built using lifts and are made as unplanked solid hulls. The plans may not be up to today's standards for some, but it is a way to get into the scratch building aspect with reasonable directions using lower cost materials and basic tools. The subjects are interesting and I'm sure that if you are interested in research that you improve on detail aspects with little increase on building cost. At the same time, my guess is that if one built one (several) of these models, a nice product would result and one would learn a good deal about tool use that would transfer to moving to more complicated work if that is desired. The materials needed to build the first model in the book - the skipjack Carrie Price - may be found laying around in one's house or purchased for very little. I've passed up these modeling projects for now close to 20 years but often take out the book and wonder if I should go build one of these models in what had been a classic model building form. I actually believe that doing so, even after build a lot of models from kits and some from scratch that there are skills to learn (on the cheap) from that book.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
just my opinion i believe scratch building should be supported and perhaps encouraged. Scratch builders should show their work, describe what they are doing and how to do it.
This should not be pushed on anyone or even suggest it is better it is just another road to follow.
if you satisfied building kit after kit that is fine

Putting scratch building out there is just showing there is more to the hobby and if you want to expand you interest then by all means go for it.

i see kits as a loop by its very nature it only goes as far as what the kit makers put out. Scratch building is open ended and there is no limits to your imagination or how a project id built.

scratch and kits both start the same. begin with simple projects and work your way up to more and more complex builds. buying only the tools you need and not what you want
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Dave, I appreciate your insights on scratch building and the encouragement to share techniques and experiences.

However, I recall earlier discussions where it was acknowledged that scratch building isn't for everyone, given the need for specialized tools and skills. At that time, there was concern about presenting scratch building as an elite aspect of the hobby, potentially discouraging newcomers (?) Now, the message seems to have shifted towards encouraging scratch building more broadly. While I agree that sharing knowledge is beneficial, it's important to maintain a consistent narrative that recognizes both the challenges and rewards of scratch building. This way, we can support all modelers, regardless of their chosen path.
This approach acknowledges the value of scratch building while advocating for a balanced and inclusive perspective within the modeling community.
 
Why is it that in these comparisons, it's always a multi-thousand-dollar kit that gets used as the reference point?

ok fair enough take the dory kit it started as $79.00 and i think it went down to $44.00 and on sale for $33.00

mind you there is more to the kit than just the wood like printed instructions etc. paint and glue and an exacto knife a printed box clamps all add to the cost. i am just using the basic dory as a build and not all the added extras

from scratch i bet i can build it for less than $10.00 and because i have enough wood laying around i could do it for nothing but my time.

even if i buy the wood it is less than $5.00

xgeet.JPG

i think we were using hi end expensive kits to compare it to the cost of some basic tools
 
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i also think we were using the hi end expensive kits to show you can buy just about all the tools you need for basic scratch building for the same cost
 
I could build that Dory kit for 0.00 using better wood harvested by me years ago and still in my stash and by using drawings from books in my library.

No library or lumber stash? There’s plenty of books in the library or via inter library loan. I buy 1x12 and 1x10 x 2Ft long pieces of pine off cuts for $2.50 each at our local Home Improvement store; beautiful stuff and probably better than the fuzzy basswood offered in kits. There’s enough wood in one of these to build a dozen dories.

I will concede that I already have a well equipped shop; something that I would have even if I didn’t build ship models. Although I have a Byrnes saw I would mill the lumber on my full sized table saw, bought used for $150.

The Grimwood book is great. The drawings are clear and can be easily reproduced at your local copy store.

As a scratch builder I am not trying to tell others what models to build or how to build them. I am trying to broaden everyone’s horizons.

Roger
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
Why is it that in these comparisons, it's always a multi-thousand-dollar kit that gets used as the reference point?

ok fair enough take the dory kit it started as $79.00 and i think it went down to $44.00 and on sale for $33.00

mind you there is more to the kit than just the wood like printed instructions etc. paint and glue and an exacto knife a printed box clamps all add to the cost. i am just using the basic dory as a build and not all the added extras

from scratch i bet i can build it for less than $10.00 and because i have enough wood laying around i could do it for nothing but my time.

even if i buy the wood it is less than $5.00

View attachment 523719

i think we were using hi end expensive kits to compare it to the cost of some basic tools
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Alright, Dave, I managed to find a sheet of basswood for $1.99 — not bad at all. But what about shipping? That could easily add another $5 to $7. And how do I know one sheet is enough? Maybe I’ll need two or even three. So, now what?
Next step would be getting plans, right? One of the first things I came across was The Dory Book — that’s about $30 for the paperback. So now I’ve got wood and plans, but I’m already over the $33 that Model Shipways charges for the full kit, which includes everything plus instructions and pre-cut parts.

It’s not about which path is better — just pointing out that starting from scratch isn’t always the cheapest route, especially for someone without a stash of wood or access to tools and reference materials.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
i also think we were using the hi end expensive kits to show you can buy just about all the tools you need for basic scratch building for the same cost
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But the main question - whether I want to go this route? Why do I have to go this route, because you think it is better this way?

It seems that, no matter how I present my points, the conversation keeps circling back to the idea that scratch-building is more economical. I respect that view, but I also stand by my own perspective. I don’t see this moving forward in a productive way, so I’m stepping back from the discussion. But just to be clear, I’m not walking away from my position. ;)
 
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